Christmas and the politically correct

C'est Moi said:
Why the "sigh" and sarcasm? What's wrong with being a religious true believer?
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Absolutely NOTHING C’est Moi.
Absolutely nothing.

Everyone should celebrate however they wish to celebrate.
We don’t need to be micro managed in somebody else’s ‘correct’ way of doing so.
I certainly don’t need to read a book in order to do so.
I’ve had plenty of practice and think I’m quite good at it now.
 

I am with Starsong...there are many holidays between now and January 1st. Including Thanksgiving and New Years. SO to me, a general "Happy Holidays" greeting is not offensive, just a greeting for all the holidays. That being said, I also say this

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C'est Moi said:
Why the "sigh" and sarcasm? What's wrong with being a religious true believer?
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What is wrong with it!! I am not ashamed of my beliefs and would never force them on anyone but don't question them and I won't question yours if you even have any. If you don't, fine. I know what I believe and am comfortable with it. You tend to yours and how you treat folks and I will tend to mine. Thanks, C'est Moi.
 

I am not a Christian. I can enjoy the season's nonreligious activities- gift giving, Santa Claus, etc. Since I don't believe in Christ, "Happy Holidays" is my appropriate season's response. I don't view this as merely "PC". I don't have to give up my religious beliefs, because others demand I conform to their religious ideation .
 
I view all this holiday greeting stuff as mostly a matter of courtesy. And I generally try to be courteous in my everyday dealings with people.

For example, I myself am a lifelong heathenistic atheist. But I always wished people "Merry Christmas" in the past. It was the courteous thing to do, and it was indisputably the Christmas season, even if I myself didn't celebrate Christmas. Meantime, I didn't feel the need to educate random strangers about my own views on the holiday.

Now if it's considered more courteous to say, "Happy Holidays," then so be it. I want to be courteous to people, and it's indisputably the holiday season, even if I don't celebrate the holidays myself. So I say, "Happy Holidays."

Same with PC stuff in general. I'm not interested in being PC when PC stuff is expressed in divisive politics and outrage. But by the time it enters the general culture and it filters down to me and affects my life directly, it has often turned into a question of courtesy toward those who think differently from me. And I try to be courteous where I can, rather than insist on pushing my own views on others.
 
CraigD said:
I view all this holiday greeting stuff as mostly a matter of courtesy. And I generally try to be courteous in my everyday dealings with people.

For example, I myself am a lifelong heathenistic atheist. But I always wished people "Merry Christmas" in the past. It was the courteous thing to do, and it was indisputably the Christmas season, even if I myself didn't celebrate Christmas. Meantime, I didn't feel the need to educate random strangers about my own views on the holiday.

Now if it's considered more courteous to say, "Happy Holidays," then so be it. I want to be courteous to people, and it's indisputably the holiday season, even if I don't celebrate the holidays myself. So I say, "Happy Holidays."

Same with PC stuff in general. I'm not interested in being PC when PC stuff is expressed in divisive politics and outrage. But by the time it enters the general culture and it filters down to me and affects my life directly, it has often turned into a question of courtesy toward those who think differently from me. And I try to be courteous where I can, rather than insist on pushing my own views on others.
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Right on, CraigD!!
 
Although there was some movement towards Happy Holidays a while back in Australia it has never really caught on.
I was thinking about this recently and I think it is because 'holiday' here has a slightly different meaning.

To Australians the word holiday has two primary meanings. We rarely ever use the word 'vacation'. We say we are on holiday or going on holidays when we are taking leave from work or study. With Christmas falling during Summer when most families take annual leave, to wish someone Happy Holidays would sound like you were wishing them a great time off work at the beach for a couple of weeks.

The second meaning is a public holiday, of which we have roughly nine each year. Only two are religious in origin - Christmas Day and Good Friday. The rest are Dec 26 (Boxing Day), Jan 1 (New Year), Australia Day (Jan 26), April 25 (Anzac Day), Queen's Birthday (June), Labour Day (October) plus some others as decided in each state. Victoria has a public holiday for the running of the Melbourne Cup.

So to wish someone Happy Holidays in December is just too confusing. We still say Merry Christmas and Happy New Year without thinking too much about it. I have learned to say "May your Ramadan be a blessed one" and "Happy Eid" to Muslim women at the supermarket checkout as an act of affirmation. I think in our context that is the better way.
 
Amazing how this topic seems to turn into a bitter, nasty argument every year. And of course, nothing about it ever changes. People will say whatever they're comfortable with.

As to the question of what is wrong with being a true believer, here's what's wrong. A "true believer" is defined by Eric Hoffer as a dyed-in-the-wool fanatic, someone who staunchly believes that
his/her beliefs, and only those beliefs, are valid, correct, and worthy of respect from other people. This can pertain to religion, political beliefs, race, gender, maybe even sports teams!

And those beliefs, held by people wearing blinders, have down through the centuries led to wars, torture, physical and mental cruelty, prejudice, refusal of civil rights, imprisonment, censorship,
insistence on allegiance to rules and principles which hold no truth for a lot of people, but they have to pretend to go along anyway, out of fear for their lives.

I think there's a whole lot wrong with that. The swaggering contempt for other people and their beliefs is one of the worst traits of human nature.

So, saying "Merry Christmas" out of a joyous desire to share one's own Christmas cheer is a nice thing to do; certainly there's nothing wrong with that. Saying it arrogantly, along with a threat that
you'd better like that greeting, or else you "won't like my answer" is definitely not all right; in fact, it demonstrates the worst of human nature.
 
If I'm wished a Merry Christmas, I respond with a Merry Christmas.

If I know the person is a Christian (they're wearing a "Jesus is the Reason for the Season" shirt or a great big cross), I'll wish them a Merry Christmas.

Otherwise, Happy Holidays is always the safe greeting. Only Scrooge could be offended by that......
 
Sunny said:
Amazing how this topic seems to turn into a bitter, nasty argument every year. And of course, nothing about it ever changes. People will say whatever they're comfortable with.

As to the question of what is wrong with being a true believer, here's what's wrong. A "true believer" is defined by Eric Hoffer as a dyed-in-the-wool fanatic, someone who staunchly believes that
his/her beliefs, and only those beliefs, are valid, correct, and worthy of respect from other people. This can pertain to religion, political beliefs, race, gender, maybe even sports teams!

And those beliefs, held by people wearing blinders, have down through the centuries led to wars, torture, physical and mental cruelty, prejudice, refusal of civil rights, imprisonment, censorship,
insistence on allegiance to rules and principles which hold no truth for a lot of people, but they have to pretend to go along anyway, out of fear for their lives.

I think there's a whole lot wrong with that. The swaggering contempt for other people and their beliefs is one of the worst traits of human nature.

So, saying "Merry Christmas" out of a joyous desire to share one's own Christmas cheer is a nice thing to do; certainly there's nothing wrong with that. Saying it arrogantly, along with a threat that
you'd better like that greeting, or else you "won't like my answer" is definitely not all right; in fact, it demonstrates the worst of human nature.
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I don't see anyone being "bitter and nasty". I can't speak for others, but I have never read any of Eric Hoffer... and from what you say, I'm not interested in doing so.

I'd say that most people think a true believer is someone who honestly believes in their God and follows their religious beliefs no matter what those might be. Personally, I am agnostic and could not care less about greetings and I honestly don't believe most people have any agenda when they offer them. I accept them in the spirit they are offered. Merry Christmas does not offend my delicate sensibilities; I don't look for offense where clearly none is intended.

That's what's wrong with the world today... too many people are so easily offended. :rolleyes: Ridiculous.
 
The funniest thing about this, to me, is that Christmas, as celebrated in the modern world, has little to do with mangers, births, wise men, stars, etc.

The most beloved ballet is about a Christmas party, and a kid falling asleep and having a dream about a gigantic tree and toys coming to life, a battle with mice, dances with snowflakes and flowers, and a nutcracker that turns into a prince.

The most beloved book and play are about an old grump who scoffs at Christmas until he has a dream about three ghosts.

A very popular children's story is about an ugly monster who wants to spoil the holiday. Still nothing about the Bible, as I recall.

The most popular songs are about some guy in L.A. wishing for snow (song written by a Jew), a reindeer with a strange facial abnormality that lights things up, and a snowman.

And the movie that is shown, and presumably watched, over and over, is about somebody wishing he was dead, until he realizes he's better off alive.

So Christmas has come to mean a lot more to us (and some would say, a lot less) than the original tale. Why even bother reigniting this controversy year after year?
 
So Christmas has come to mean a lot more to us (and some would say, a lot less) than the original tale. Why even bother reigniting this controversy year after year?
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I can't argue with that. Christmas in the West has become a festival of consumerism. It is even celebrated as such in countries without a history of Christianity such as Japan and China. Yes, I know that there are Christians in both of these countries but they are not driving the way the season is celebrated. It is all about Santa and shopping.

Labels can become weaponised. I reject the labels 'true believer' and 'born again Christian' although I am actually both because I don't accept other people's definitions of meaning.

I look forward to Christmas as a family festival that celebrates a very special family event, one that has changed the evolution of mankind as a social creature. I will see most of my family over this this period and spend time with friends and I will focus on the meaning of the four words Hope, Joy, Love and Peace. I have neither the time nor the energy to squabble over a greeting.
 
I'm still in the Merry Christmas camp and always will be.

Nothing wrong with Santa Claus aka Saint Nicholas.

Merry Christmas to all… and to all a Good night!
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Sunny said:
The funniest thing about this, to me, is that Christmas, as celebrated in the modern world, has little to do with mangers, births, wise men, stars, etc.

The most beloved ballet is about a Christmas party, and a kid falling asleep and having a dream about a gigantic tree and toys coming to life, a battle with mice, dances with snowflakes and flowers, and a nutcracker that turns into a prince.

The most beloved book and play are about an old grump who scoffs at Christmas until he has a dream about three ghosts.

A very popular children's story is about an ugly monster who wants to spoil the holiday. Still nothing about the Bible, as I recall.

The most popular songs are about some guy in L.A. wishing for snow (song written by a Jew), a reindeer with a strange facial abnormality that lights things up, and a snowman.

And the movie that is shown, and presumably watched, over and over, is about somebody wishing he was dead, until he realizes he's better off alive.

So Christmas has come to mean a lot more to us (and some would say, a lot less) than the original tale. Why even bother reigniting this controversy year after year?
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Good post, Sunny.
 
moosehead said:
Geez, I'm really sorry I started this post. It kinda got way outta hand. I'm thinking I'll stick to the adventures of Sue and Doug....Then again......
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Don't worry, Moosie.
We're a wayward mob on this forum and topics have a way of going off topic at the drop of a hat.
Don't let any of this deter you from starting topics.
 
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I'm not a fan of Christmas because I hate winter and despise the consumerism pressuring us to buy more at this this time of year or we're somehow grinches for not doing so. I was raised Catholic, but have so many friends of different beliefs I find saying "Happy Holidays " is the answer to the PC Xmas greeting issue. :cool:
 
After the Protestant reformation, the Yuletide celebrations as they were known, were banned in Scotland - being thought to be Papish festivals. This remained in place for almost 400 years and probably accounts for the popularity of Hogmanay.

Even as things were relaxed, Christmas in Scotland was traditionally observed very quietly, because the Presbyterian Church of Scotland for various reasons never placed much emphasis on it.
Christmas Day only became a Public holiday in 1958, and Boxing day in 1974. The New Year's Eve festivity, Hogmanay, was by far the largest celebration in Scotland. The gift-giving, public holidays and feasting associated with mid-winter were traditionally held between 11 December and 6 January. However, since the 1980s, the fading of the Church's influence and the increased influences from the rest of the UK and elsewhere, Christmas and its related festivities are now nearly on a par with Hogmanay.

As an atheist, I celebrate the Yultide starting with the Winter Solstice, but I'm happy to fall in with the 'norm' celebrate the 25th Dec. too. Why miss the chance to enjoy yourself?
 
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