Columbus Does Not Discover America

Good point. If one is an esoteric Christian, then Christ arrived in the meridian of time and we are now going back to a more spiritual nature and this time would be just about equal to walking in the streets of Babel.

At that time everyone spoke the same language and their was no need for deception. Peoples word were taken at face value, literally.
Facebook reached 1 billion people last week.
 

The pyramids represent to me the power of the man (pharoah) who ordered them to be built. I understand that these were burial chambers to provide all the comforts of this world to the deceased in his/her afterlife. They could have been built anywhere, but some were built above ground and I think this was to impress upon others the absolute power of pharoah, the power of Egypt. Above ground tombs were not the wealthiest or the most practical but they have been the most impressive and enduring. So I must agree they are an example in incarnation.

I've read the Odessey, but feel that the Trojan horse story, which was in the Illiad, was an ingenious example of consolidating resources, saving forces and still winning a battle through subterfuge. This was purely man's brilliance shining through in a tight spot. The Odessey focused much on the gods controlling the lives of men at their whim which is less compelling.
I'm not sure that the Trojan horse was the first example of human cunning and treachery in all of history, but on a grand scale it was certainly the most successful and therefore memorable.

Good show!
 
Underock1 said:
:what1: You mean you don't believe in Bigfoot?!!
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Show me some skeletal remains and you'll spark my interest. No one ever digs up a bone that could absolutely, unequivocally belong to a "missing link" type creature such as bigfoot. :D
 

chic said:
Show me some skeletal remains and you'll spark my interest. No one ever digs up a bone that could absolutely, unequivocally belong to a "missing link" type creature such as bigfoot. :D
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That's because they get rid of the suit and die at home like the rest of us.
 
Much of the Odessey is about showing that it was not necessary to have Gods to get things done. This was a big conflict between Achilles who himself was a demigod and Ulysses ( the main character ). This point was further brought home by his death by a mortal and showing that false beliefs are an Achilles heel. The war was fought over the Palladium not Helen, and gives an insight has how strong the belief in magic was at that time. The actual battle, boats, logistics and good storey stuff has the same play out as any other battle, and is dressing fill in for a good storey.
 
The pyramids are a reminder to who came after that you don't need pi to build an empire. The ratio of the bases to the heights, and the eye of Horus are both continued fractions. This means they had the concepts of mathematical divergence and convergence and continuous functions. They worked with base 60 and their daily math was done in fractions making it easy to manipulate in the head.
The presence of this and stuff on other hemispheres such as the Mayan calendar are a good example of the "intellectual level" of previous days.
 
rt3 said:
Much of the Odessey is about showing that it was not necessary to have Gods to get things done. This was a big conflict between Achilles who himself was a demigod and Ulysses ( the main character ). This point was further brought home by his death by a mortal and showing that false beliefs are an Achilles heel. The war was fought over the Palladium not Helen, and gives an insight has how strong the belief in magic was at that time. The actual battle, boats, logistics and good storey stuff has the same play out as any other battle, and is dressing fill in for a good storey.
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Well I feel the gods were against Ulysses blowing him off course while 20 years elapses between the end of the Trojan wars and his reunion with Penelope and even that did not go smoothly.

Is there any proof that Troy really existed? I've never been 100% convinced.
 
chic said:
Well I feel the gods were against Ulysses blowing him off course while 20 years elapses between the end of the Trojan wars and his reunion with Penelope and even that did not go smoothly.

Is there any proof that Troy really existed? I've never been 100% convinced.
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The Trojan War has been a life long interest of mine. I have a half a dozen books on it. I even invented a game based on it for my own amusement. Had many happy days defending Troy against my sons and grandsons.

Troy exists today as a major archaeological site in Eastern Turkey. There are actually several different Troys, built one on top of the other. The site was first discovered by an amateur, Heinrich Schliemann sometime around 1850, using the descriptions in the Iliad as a guide. Unfortunately, he brutalized the site, excavating a huge trench through the middle of it, destroying much and failing to note the ambiance of what he found. He found a treasure horde of gold jewelry, which he immediately assigned as Helen's, but it was actually from a different period. The treasure was captured in Berlin by the Russians in WWII, and has since disappeared.

The evidence for a historical Trojan War is substantial and it is pretty well accepted as fact. It was probably not a single episode though. The Mycenaeans seem to have raided Asia minor on a regular basis over a period of many years.
The Iliad and Odyssey, are a mish mash of history and myth collected together over a long period of time.
Homer, if he existed, was more a collector and editor, than the author. Troy was certainly destroyed, but whether by war or earthquake, is a subject of debate. I feel quite certain it wasn't by the absurdity of any Trojan Horse. Just a good story, and poetic license. The episode is barely referred to in the Odyssey. All of the details come from the Aeneid, written centuries later by the Roman poet, Virgil. Its been a long time, but I seem to remember reading that the voyage in the Odyssey was based on a type of navigational guide used by early Greek sailors.
Aren't you sorry you wondered now? As I said; I've had the interest. How many people do you think there are to share it? I repeat; I am a pretty boring guy.
:yawning:
 
Great post , thanks. The story, just like the bible, myths and folklore are stories about the growth of the human consious.
 
Studies about history that present time lines, motivational patterns in current awareness, analysis of technological prowess are called matter before mind approaches. Survival of the fittest, carbon 14 dating, reproducibility are their strongest arguements.

studies about history that recognize time to be an invention of man, restricted motivational patterns due to limitations in awareness, seperation of science from technology etc. are called mind before matter approaches. The fact that 80% of the world population believes in a God, and 50 % believe in aliens would suggest the first method has some short comings.
 
rt3 said:
Great post , thanks. The story, just like the bible, myths and folklore are stories about the growth of the human consious.
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Thanks, rt3. I'm glad you mentioned that. I meant to make that comparison with the Bible. I suppose you could say they both serve as records of the state of thought in their respective cultures. The Bible was more of a collection of rules and legalities from earlier cultures useful in maintaining an orderly populace. Although the Iliad was referred to in some legal cases in classical Greece, its origins were more about a bunch of macho types sitting around drinking wine and paying to hear a whopping good story.
 
rt3 said:
Studies about history that present time lines, motivational patterns in current awareness, analysis of technological prowess are called matter before mind approaches. Survival of the fittest, carbon 14 dating, reproducibility are their strongest arguements.

studies about history that recognize time to be an invention of man, restricted motivational patterns due to limitations in awareness, seperation of science from technology etc. are called mind before matter approaches. The fact that 80% of the world population believes in a God, and 50 % believe in aliens would suggest the first method has some short comings.
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I suggest that the short comings are not in the method, but on the profound effects of early influences on the human brain in childhood promoted by the previous generation whose minds were influenced in the same manner, going back to the beginning of human history. Its a hard cycle to break. I know you see it otherwise. Put me down as 100% in the matter before mind camp.
 
also just plain diets. low thyroid is the largest cause of mental retardation in the world.
 
I understand that the remains of "Troy" are located in Turkey but there were seven layers of artifacts uncovered by archeologists there. I remember seeing the excavation on tv years ago. So which level would represent the Kingdom written about by Homer? The historical Troy? Is there evidence of a king named Priam and a prince named Hector? It would be more interesting if there were.

The Trojan horse made an interesting story more for what it revealed of Ulysess, a man who cultivated wisdom while surrounded by bravado.

No, I'm never sorry for wondering. I enjoy the thread and learning and imagining. Einstein totally believed in the power of imagination and relied upon his own. Your Troy game sounds like it was lots of fun Underock. Way to go for your creativity. :)
 
rt3 said:
Studies about history that present time lines, motivational patterns in current awareness, analysis of technological prowess are called matter before mind approaches. Survival of the fittest, carbon 14 dating, reproducibility are their strongest arguements.

studies about history that recognize time to be an invention of man, restricted motivational patterns due to limitations in awareness, seperation of science from technology etc. are called mind before matter approaches. The fact that 80% of the world population believes in a God, and 50 % believe in aliens would suggest the first method has some short comings.
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Do you mean you believe early man believed in aliens as well as God or a pantheon of gods? Or are you discussing the beliefs of modern man? I'm a little confused here. I believe the bible was written as a set of laws and ordinances designed to control man's behavior.
 
chic said:
I understand that the remains of "Troy" are located in Turkey but there were seven layers of artifacts uncovered by archeologists there. I remember seeing the excavation on tv years ago. So which level would represent the Kingdom written about by Homer? The historical Troy? Is there evidence of a king named Priam and a prince named Hector? It would be more interesting if there were.

The Trojan horse made an interesting story more for what it revealed of Ulysess, a man who cultivated wisdom while surrounded by bravado.

No, I'm never sorry for wondering. I enjoy the thread and learning and imagining. Einstein totally believed in the power of imagination and relied upon his own. Your Troy game sounds like it was lots of fun Underock. Way to go for your creativity. :)
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Going by recall here. I believe the Troy associated with the traditional date of the war, 1250BC, is Troy 6a. It was destroyed and burned, but whether by fire or war is debated. Originally, there was only a smallish citadel excavated, but a much larger city has recently been uncovered. I have never run across historical documentation for Priam or Hector, but there is a tantalizing reference in Hittite records of the period to "Alexandros" which was Paris real name. Its fun to speculate. Kind of like working a jigsaw puzzle with only 10% of the pieces and trying to get the picture. If we had the true story, I'm sure it wouldn't be nearly as interesting.
 
rt3 said:
Studies about history that present time lines, motivational patterns in current awareness, analysis of technological prowess are called matter before mind approaches. Survival of the fittest, carbon 14 dating, reproducibility are their strongest arguements.

studies about history that recognize time to be an invention of man, restricted motivational patterns due to limitations in awareness, seperation of science from technology etc. are called mind before matter approaches. The fact that 80% of the world population believes in a God, and 50 % believe in aliens would suggest the first method has some short comings.
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So religion, and all that has been written about it, is more a record of man's intellectual development and perception rather than factual information? "Time" is definitely an invention of man. (Or is it a "definition" because man is the only animal who is aware of his own mortality?) So, if we eliminate the concept of time, does this expand our awareness and offer limitless possibilities and interpretations of events?
 
Underock1 said:
Going by recall here. I believe the Troy associated with the traditional date of the war, 1250BC, is Troy 6a. It was destroyed and burned, but whether by fire or war is debated. Originally, there was only a smallish citadel excavated, but a much larger city has recently been uncovered. I have never run across historical documentation for Priam or Hector, but there is a tantalizing reference in Hittite records of the period to "Alexandros" which was Paris real name. Its fun to speculate. Kind of like working a jigsaw puzzle with only 10% of the pieces and trying to get the picture. If we had the true story, I'm sure it wouldn't be nearly as interesting.
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I don't know. History fascinates me and the true story could be as good as whatever really happened.:love_heart:
What I was saying was I did see archeological excavations of "Troy" as I'm sure you have, and there were remains of several cities unearthed on the location. Thus emerged the theory that "Troy" wasn't really one place but several, or one place that was destroyed more than once and then rebuilt.

That's interesting about Alexandros and Paris. I didn't know that.

It is like a puzzle. It's the wheatfield - 10,000 pieces all in shades of yellow. :D
 
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