Common Sense Atheism

Chris P Bacon said:
Would it matter to you if you knew the religious beliefs or lack of belief of those everyday people who attend to you?

People like a barber or beautician? Grocery store clerk? Physician? Attorney?

How did you come by your belief system? Did you learn it from birth or did you discover your current beliefs later in life?

What if you consider them to believe as you do or nearly so but you find out that their beliefs are the opposite of yours?
Does it matter? And if so, why or what not? What makes a person's beliefs, besides your own and those of your family, important?

I'm only curious as to why religion or lack of it, stirs up such strong feelings in people.
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For some (certainly not all) people, it’s just scary.

If I accept that you don't believe what I believe then I have to accept that what I believe might not be the ultimate and only truth, the right way of living, which would then cause tremors in the bedrock of my beliefs about myself, who I am and my place in the world.

You have to be wrong so that I can be right so that I can maintain my image of myself and feel secure within myself and my place in the world.

I think still others genuinely feel they are helping by trying to convince "non-believers" of their religions/views, whatever. They believe they are helping to save people and it is out of goodheartedness (misguided sure, but still) that they are so fervent in their attempts to get their messages across.

That was me, when I was Christian. I really wanted to save people, to help bring them to the light. And if I’m honest, probably a little of the former as well.

Disclaimer: I’m not disparaging religion; there is elegance and beauty in “dying to yourself” and letting go to a higher source, whatever that is to you. To seeing yourself in a humble form and the desire to serve and help others from that standpoint.
 

Medusa said:
For some (certainly not all) people, it’s just scary.

If I accept that you don't believe what I believe then I have to accept that what I believe might not be the ultimate and only truth, the right way of living, which would then cause tremors in the bedrock of my beliefs about myself, who I am and my place in the world.

You have to be wrong so that I can be right so that I can maintain my image of myself and feel secure within myself and my place in the world.

I think still others genuinely feel they are helping by trying to convince "non-believers" of their religions/views, whatever. They believe they are helping to save people and it is out of goodheartedness (misguided sure, but still) that they are so fervent in their attempts to get their messages across.

That was me, when I was Christian. I really wanted to save people, to help bring them to the light. And if I’m honest, probably a little of the former as well.

Disclaimer: I’m not disparaging religion; there is elegance and beauty in “dying to yourself” and letting go to a higher source, whatever that is to you. To seeing yourself in a humble form and the desire to serve and help others from that standpoint.
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You are, without a doubt, glitter glue! 😉
iu
 
Chris P Bacon said:
Is it time that churches pay taxes in the US? What do you think? Some religious leaders live a pretty good life it looks like and they live it tax free.

You are, without a doubt, glitter glue! 😉
iu
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In a word, yes.
Few more words... Have you seen pictures of Joel Orenstein's (sp?) "house?" Yes. Yes, of course it is! For what, at least hundreds of years now the clergy have lived high on the... oh, sorry Chris... lived quite opulently on tithes. Pissess me off, no end.

Errands. Back later. (This might be a good topic for tomorrow if we can be chill?)
 

Medusa said:
In a word, yes.
Few more words... Have you seen pictures of Joel Orenstein's (sp?) "house?" Yes. Yes, of course it is! For what, at least hundreds of years now the clergy have lived high on the... oh, sorry Chris... lived quite opulently on tithes. Pissess me off, no end.
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His last name is Osteen, Medusa, not that it matters though really. 😊 I don't know that I've seen his house but I've seen the church he uses for services. But I don't imagine that he's doling out soup to those in need. He seems to spend a lot of time traveling and taping his TV ministry shows to be shown at a later date. But he's just one of many who live nicely, tax free.

Well, that was a question that I was thinking about posing. When I responded to you, I didn't realize that I had included that question as well. The question being, Is it time that churches pay taxes in the US? What do you think? Some religious leaders live a pretty good life it looks like and they live it tax free. The cat's out of the bag now though, so I'll put my 2¢ out there.

I too think it's only fair that they do. Why do churches need money anyway? Why, if their work is so important, doesn't some divine power bestow all that is needed for them to accomplish their works? Why are mortal deeds necessary when there's some supernatural power that can supposedly do anything? Other creatures that live on the earth don't use or need money, yet something or someone looks after their needs. Why is it that mankind needs special leaders and buildings that don't share in the common taxation experience. That old saying about nothing being certain except death and taxes seems to not be true for churches and organized religion. They'll be here forever, I'm afraid but they shouldn't forever be tax free, I also believe.
 
Joel Osteen does not take a salary and does pay taxes on his book sales. If he did take a salary that is taxable income. It is the church itself which pays no taxes. Although hard for some here to believe, I actually like Joel!
 
I didn't know that but does his church pay for his expenses then? Things like his home, cars, food, those types of things? Forgive my doubt that he's gaming the system, in his own way but I just can't picture him waiting in line at the grocery store to pay for his food or at Jiffy Lube for an oil change appointment. And Joel Osteen is but one of many religious figures I can think of. I bet that not many of them are salaried but the churches they lead pay for all their expenses. It's a shell game, nothing less.
 
I'm not one of those who insist atheism is a religion. How ridiculous. But if I may have your ear Chrispy, I'm getting goddamn sick of these religious threads, especially the ones which attract the hypocrites.* I think we're putting our political energies into religion and it's too much already IMO.

*They all do, no especially about it.

Discussion on religion should not include emotion, again IMO.
 
If you think as I do, that preachers are entertainers, and their flocks their audience, perhaps you could tolerate their incomes more evenly. They make money? So does Brad Pitt, and I wouldn't begrudge him. It's a mass appeal, whether we include ourselves or not.
 
Pepper said:
I'm not one of those who insist atheism is a religion. How ridiculous. But if I may have your ear Chrispy, I'm getting goddamn sick of these religious threads, especially the ones which attract the hypocrites.* I think we're putting our political energies into religion and it's too much already IMO.

*They all do, no especially about it.

Discussion on religion should not include emotion, again IMO.
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Religion gets a "free pass". It always has and likely always will. That doesn't make it right though, to me. All anyone has to say is "Jesus" or God and boom! They pretty much become untouchable from the ordinary things that affect the bulk of us. That in turn increases the share of your income that you end up paying in taxes because these religious bodies pay none yet enjoy every advantage and more than you or I. Their wealth comes from donations and tithes which are a sort of self imposed tax paid by the church goers of their own volition.
 
Pepper said:
If you think as I do, that preachers are entertainers, and their flocks their audience, perhaps you could tolerate their incomes more evenly. They make money? So does Brad Pitt, and I wouldn't begrudge him. It's a mass appeal, whether we include ourselves or not.
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Entertainers, yes but that's not the occupation they would list on their income tax return, if they had to file one. Smoke and mirrors, yes, I think so too. But I'm pretty sure that Brad Pitt paid more in tax last year than several of those "spiritual" leaders did, maybe even more than they paid in the last several years combined.
 
JaniceM said:
Even if the time-frame were extended, and location worldwide, you'd never find Jesus on that kind of list. :)
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If Jesus ever were to actually return, do you suppose that he'd need money to spread his words? Or his own jet to get around the world in? I'm sure that people would have no problem giving it to him but would he need it as these others seem to?
 
Chris P Bacon said:
Would it matter to you if you knew the religious beliefs or lack of belief of those everyday people who attend to you?

People like a barber or beautician? Grocery store clerk? Physician? Attorney?

How did you come by your belief system? Did you learn it from birth or did you discover your current beliefs later in life?

What if you consider them to believe as you do or nearly so but you find out that their beliefs are the opposite of yours?
Does it matter? And if so, why or what not? What makes a person's beliefs, besides your own and those of your family, important?

I'm only curious as to why religion or lack of it, stirs up such strong feelings in people.
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Past and present, I come from a "religiously diverse" family. That's been the case for at least 4 generations.

So, to answer your questions:
1. I don't care what anyone believes, whether they're 'everyday people' like you described, or even family/relatives.
2. I came to my beliefs on my own- was raised with nothing.
3. I can only speak for myself, but re: 'strong feelings'- individuals who want to shove their beliefs down other people's throats, individuals who harm others and 'credit' their 'religions' for it, and individuals who show flat-out disrespect ranging from condescending to ridicule. Otherwise, like I said, I don't care what anyone believes, or if they believe in nothing at all, it's their business not mine.
 
Chris P Bacon said:
If Jesus ever were to actually return, do you suppose that he'd need money to spread his words? Or his own jet to get around the world in? I'm sure that people would have no problem giving it to him but would he need it as these others seem to?
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And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
 
Chris P Bacon said:
Have faith, the bible tells me so!

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Before I formed an opinion about these morons, I did some research that led me to wish MORE of them would be bitten & die of snake bites.
Between these idiotic services, the snakes are kept in filthy wooden boxes in a storage shed their entire life with NO regard for the temperature.
Reptiles are cold blooded, which means they can't internally regulate their body temperature like mammals can; they must move in & out of shade to prevent illness; that's why a proper reptile enclosure is temperature regulated.
They also cannot digest food unless the temperature is over 75 degrees, which means they starve & are half dead during those services.
Snakes also can't move very well when their temperature is too low; that's why these "worshippers" are not bitten more often.
And all that jumping & bouncing around while these jerks hold the snakes can't be very pleasant for them, but hey.......they're doing
"God's Work....."
A wooden box in a storage shed means animals suffer their whole lives & die, but that's OK with these "God Fearing People." When it's time for the service & the snake is found dead, they just replace it with another one.
Much like seeing a bullfighter being gored, nothing makes my day better than seeing these idiots get what they deserve.
Watch this Timber Rattlesnake get justice:

 
JaniceM said:
And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
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Was that one of those things like not giving your daughters to strangers that was eliminated because it didn't fit the narrative?
 
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