COVID-19 Vaccine math... Are my numbers wrong?

StarSong

Awkward is my Superpower
I've spent a couple of hours this morning trying to figure out how long COVID is going to be center stage in our lives. I've looked at vaccines, herd immunity, and coronavirus behaviors.

Here's what I've come up with.

To paraphrase T.S. Eliot, COVID-19 will almost certainly end with a whimper not a bang. It will most likely recede over a long period of time, either by vaccination (which will take many, many months in the US alone, never mind the entire planet), or when so many humans contract it that herd immunity develops (even longer), or its RNA gradually mutates into less dangerous or less contagious forms (hard to say how long that will take because it's planet-wide).
Or some combination of these.

I'll talk about the US, but presume these numbers are appropriate for most of the rest of the world.

The FDA is willing to drop its typical vaccine efficacy requirements down to 50% for a COVID vaccine, meaning a vaccine will only have to provide immunity to 50% of the people inoculated. The unlucky 50% who don't get immunity? Apparently it will be like rolling up one's sleeve for a placebo.

To be clear, they're not saying 50% of the entire population will be immune, they're saying only 50% of those who opt to take the vaccine will be.

Further whittling the odds, right now roughly half of the US population says they'll get vaccinated. So 50% get vaccinated and 50% of those vaccines are effective. Now we're at 25% with vaccine immunity plus perhaps another 15% who've developed immunity by already getting COVID (most undiagnosed - less than 2% of the US population has tested positive).

Problem is, those who had symptom-less COVID or were positive but tested negative, have no idea that they might have antibodies and therefore must assume they're vulnerable. And then there are those who tested positive but are concerned the iffy tests were false positives.

In addition, if the vaccine is only 50% effective, how confident can people be that their shot "took"?

People who shun the vaccines entirely will have to rely on the insufficient herd immunity of the people listed above to protect them. While obviously better than what we have now, these are still pretty lousy odds.

For comparison: seasonal flu vaccines vary from 10% - 60% effective, depending on how well the vaccine matches up with the flu virus that happens to be circulating that year. Mumps and pertussis are about 80% effective. Most other vaccines have 90% - 95% effectiveness.

From where I sit, it looks like we have a long while to go with COVID-19.

Thoughts?
 

And, to further add to the dismal outlook,

1. How do we know that antibodies confer immunity? Are the antibodies that are naturally produced when a person actually has the disease the same as whatever goes into the vaccine? In other words, the vaccines could work 50% of the time, and the natural antibodies not at all. If so, even those who have had the disease still need the vaccine.

2. I wonder what will happen diagnostically speaking when flu season begins. The symptoms are similar.
 
And, to further add to the dismal outlook,

1. How do we know that antibodies confer immunity? Are the antibodies that are naturally produced when a person actually has the disease the same as whatever goes into the vaccine? In other words, the vaccines could work 50% of the time, and the natural antibodies not at all. If so, even those who have had the disease still need the vaccine.

2. I wonder what will happen diagnostically speaking when flu season begins. The symptoms are similar.


As to your item #2, if I understand it correctly, there are tests that can tell the difference between influenza and covid-19.
 

or its RNA gradually mutates into less dangerous or less contagious forms (hard to say how long that will take because it's planet-wide).
Don't like gloom & doom but since there are other virus under the same category

mutate to a more lethal virus.
 
And if you like to read books that can scare the bejesus out of you, look for "Stations Eleven" by Emily St John Mandel.

It's a fictionalized account of a world-wide fast spreading pandemic called the Georgia Viirus and how a small group of people lived through it.

I had to look for publish date as I first thought someone fast with words had scarfed up the current virus and decided to make a buck on it. Not so. Publish date Sep. 2014.
 
Covid-19 is here to stay, just like the rest of the viruses (colds, flu, etc.) Any vaccine will have a percentage effectiveness just like the current flu vaccine. (I don't take flu shots and I will not be taking the Covid-19 vaccine.)

I am weary of all this hoopla and honestly am beginning to wonder why the panic started in the first place. Politics???
 
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Covid-19 is here to stay, just like the rest of the viruses (colds, flu, etc.) Any vaccine will have a percentage effectiveness just like the current flu vaccine. (I don't take flu shots and I will not be taking the Covid-19 vaccine.)

I am weary of all this hoopla and honestly am beginning to wonder why the panic started in the first place. I have read that Covid-19 deaths have yet to reach the H1N1 numbers, but we didn't bring down the world economy back then. Politics???

Under 14,000 US deaths from H1N1 in a full year and 165,000 from COVID-19 in six months.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-h1n1-pandemic.html
 
As to your item #2, if I understand it correctly, there are tests that can tell the difference between influenza and covid-19.
No, they can't. Coronavirus is a group of viruses that also cause the common cold as well as flu & other illnesses. That's what makes all these "Positive" cases meaningless. Almost all colds are viruses; that's why there is no cure for the common cold. A positive test means someone had a cold or any virus at one time, which is just about everybody.
Ever wonder why people (like Ohio's Governor, for example) tested positive for Covid, then later tested negative?
Same with that actor - Nick Cordero.
 
Just to add to the :eek:

A friend came to visit yesterday (masks, social distancing) and she said her doctor friend says the virus has mutated and it's here for the long haul.

BBC news notes that Putin has said that a vaccine has approval and mass vaccination will begin in October. This, after 2months of testing on humans. He said his daughter had had the vaccine (ooh I think I see pigs flying)!!!!!

An 'action' group calling themselves StandUpX were outside a store (South London) urging customers( and probably intimidating them) to remove the facial coverings because they are 'bad for you'

It has been suggested by scientists that secondary school children ( 11-16)can transmit as easily as adults.
 
No, they can't. Coronavirus is a group of viruses that also cause the common cold as well as flu & other illnesses. That's what makes all these "Positive" cases meaningless. Almost all colds are viruses; that's why there is no cure for the common cold. A positive test means someone had a cold or any virus at one time, which is just about everybody.
Ever wonder why people (like Ohio's Governor, for example) tested positive for Covid, then later tested negative?
Same with that actor - Nick Cordero.
You've written this before but haven't cited any credible sources. I've yet to hear of it anywhere but on your posts. Not saying you're incorrect, only that I can't verify it anywhere.

Influenza is not a corona virus. Whole different virus.
The key difference between coronavirus and influenza is that coronavirus is positive-sense single-stranded RNA virus that causes illnesses ranging from common cold and pneumonia to severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) and the Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) while influenza virus is a negative-sense single-stranded RNA virus that causes seasonal flu epidemics each year.

Yeah, our testing tends to be less than accurate and the rapid tests are especially so. Doesn't make this a nonexistent threat. It only means this is one more area in which the US government has failed its people.
 
No, they can't. Coronavirus is a group of viruses that also cause the common cold as well as flu & other illnesses. That's what makes all these "Positive" cases meaningless. Almost all colds are viruses; that's
why there is no cure for the common cold. A positive test means someone had a cold or any virus at one time, which is just about everybody.

Win, why do you keep repeating such complete and utter nonsense? It would almost be funny if it weren't so potentially dangerous, if anyone actually believed you.

Starsong addressed some of the areas where you are totally wrong... except she is more polite about it than I am.

True, almost all colds are viruses. So what does that prove? It doesn't mean the common cold virus is the same one that the coronavirus is. That's like saying all dogs are animals; therefore, all animals are dogs.

All I know about the test for coronavirus is what I read in the papers and hear on the news, the same as pretty much everybody else except the professionals. But even I know that the test doesn't tell you whether you've ever had a cold or any virus at any time in your life! If that were true, literally everyone would test positive!

Spouting this kind of nonsense is an insult to our intelligence! Do you really believe it yourself, or are you playing some little game with us?
 
Win, why do you keep repeating such complete and utter nonsense? It would almost be funny if it weren't so potentially dangerous, if anyone actually believed you.

Starsong addressed some of the areas where you are totally wrong... except she is more polite about it than I am.

True, almost all colds are viruses. So what does that prove? It doesn't mean the common cold virus is the same one that the coronavirus is. That's like saying all dogs are animals; therefore, all animals are dogs.

All I know about the test for coronavirus is what I read in the papers and hear on the news, the same as pretty much everybody else except the professionals. But even I know that the test doesn't tell you whether you've ever had a cold or any virus at any time in your life! If that were true, literally everyone would test positive!

Spouting this kind of nonsense is an insult to our intelligence! Do you really believe it yourself, or are you playing some little game with us?
No one can insult your intelligence.
Something has to exist before it can be insulted.
 
You've written this before but haven't cited any credible sources. I've yet to hear of it anywhere but on your posts. Not saying you're incorrect, only that I can't verify it anywhere.

Influenza is not a corona virus. Whole different virus.
The key difference between coronavirus and influenza is that coronavirus is positive-sense single-stranded RNA virus that causes illnesses ranging from common cold and pneumonia to severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) and the Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) while influenza virus is a negative-sense single-stranded RNA virus that causes seasonal flu epidemics each year.

Yeah, our testing tends to be less than accurate and the rapid tests are especially so. Doesn't make this a nonexistent threat. It only means this is one more area in which the US government has failed its people.
This is some great info Starsong which I had no idea about. Unfortunately there’s too much math in this thread for me.😂 My least favourite subject 😬
 
It's just so sad that things have come to this all over masks & pride. I simply don't understand what is so hard about following a few simple regulations to help us get rid of something that has the potential to kill all of us eventually. I don't understand how people can be so selfish & so hateful.
 

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