Cringe.... How Embarrassing!

ossian

ossian

Senior Member
Location
Scotland
Well, it seems that the honourable members of the Muirfield Golf Club have managed to embarrass a nation. Yes, the fine gentlemen of the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers have voted to maintain the restriction on membership of their club to gentlemen only! Despite the preferences of the club itself to welcome female members, the privileged and out-dated members thought otherwise.

Now if this had been a small, insignificant club it would be bad enough. But since this is one of the oldest, best established and recognised clubs in Scotland - and probably the world - it is an embarrassment to themselves and to the rest of the country. Sadly, it also probably lists among its members, some of the most important people in Scotland and abroad. Fortunately, the Open governing body has stated that it will not host The Open at a club who does not admit women.

Sigh............ :(

Shame
 

A club being a private organization can get away with it. I think one of the golf clubs on the US tour banned women and lost some tv coverage so they had to find money & sponsors to the have the tournament broadcast. The networks told them they would not pay for the rights to broadcast so they had to pay the networks to broadcast.

Unfortunately clubs like golf clubs attract enough money people they can do what ever they want under the guise of being "private" which makes it legal but not the most desired policy.
 
You are absolutely right, WhatInThe. The club is a private members' club and it is the membership that decides who can and cannot be admitted. It does puzzle me how they can decide to exclude anyone based on gender, race, etc. It would be good if someone did disclose who the more famous members of this club were. I suspect that some will be judges and lawyers from Edinburgh and, if so, that could be a further embarrassment. There could even be some politicians in the ranks. Yep, it would be interesting to learn who they are.
 

ossian said:
You are absolutely right, WhatInThe. The club is a private members' club and it is the membership that decides who can and cannot be admitted. It does puzzle me how they can decide to exclude anyone based on gender, race, etc. It would be good if someone did disclose who the more famous members of this club were. I suspect that some will be judges and lawyers from Edinburgh and, if so, that could be a further embarrassment. There could even be some politicians in the ranks. Yep, it would be interesting to learn who they are.
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I don't golf but I hear stories of what goes on on the courses including illegal drug use of all kinds and public drinking which off the course would be illegal. But when these clubs are loaded with money people including lawyers getting away with that stuff is much easier. Also with the steep membership fees a lot of these clubs are self funding so as long as they don't take public/tax payers there is nothing to hold over their head for such policy. And to top it off, membership in any club is voluntary, they could be sued for discrimination from an employee stand point because they are denying someone a chance to earn a living but I don't think denying a person a game of golf or expensive drinks in clubhouse is a federal offense.
 
It will be interesting to see where this goes now. Having thought about this, I can - kinda - understand why private members' clubs can be allowed to cater for a specific gender. Things like a Catholic Woman's Guild or Jewish Men's Association may have reasons for being gender specific. As could some sports clubs which prepare athletes for competition. Much of which is still gender specific. However, this is more like a recreational club exploiting the legal loophole of 'private member clubs'. What they are doing is not illegal, but it is morally wrong.

And considering the likelihood that they do include some fairly powerful lawyers on their register, I would not be surprised if they challenged the R and A's decision to exclude them from hosting The Open because of their membership restrictions.
 
Perhaps a group of well to do women golfers could get together and start their own exclusive club? I mean I wouldn't necessarily want to fight to get into a club that didn't want me. A group of women could probably create a less corrupt and more welcoming organization on their own.
 
ossian said:
It will be interesting to see where this goes now. Having thought about this, I can - kinda - understand why private members' clubs can be allowed to cater for a specific gender. Things like a Catholic Woman's Guild or Jewish Men's Association may have reasons for being gender specific. As could some sports clubs which prepare athletes for competition. Much of which is still gender specific. However, this is more like a recreational club exploiting the legal loophole of 'private member clubs'. What they are doing is not illegal, but it is morally wrong.

And considering the likelihood that they do include some fairly powerful lawyers on their register, I would not be surprised if they challenged the R and A's decision to exclude them from hosting The Open because of their membership restrictions.
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My thing with a lot of clubs including gyms is that crime on that property minus well be crime that goes on behind closed doors in a home. Gyms are notorious for drug/steroid dealing among other things. Even locker theft and to get the police to investigate isn't as easy as it seems. The police unless invited or they have knowledge of crime on that property can't do much. Got to be careful about pushing too hard for what goes on on private property and in private organizations. Yes investigate & pursue crime/criminals but that's about where it should stop.
 
What is even worse is that it is not even a democratic decision. The majority of members voted to admit women, but a simple majority is not sufficient to change the rule.
 
I think there have to be some places in the world where like-minded people can still gather and have a good time, and this is after all a private club. That's one thing nice about being private, public laws can't be forced on you past a certain extent (and I have no idea what that extent is).

My dad was a Mason. The Masons don't allow women. I never had a problem with that. I think they're dying out now anyway. I don't have a problem with that either. My dad was certainly not a woman-hater; he never thought his daughters were second-class citizens to men.

Are you a member of this club, ossian? Can you vote with others to let women play?

The idea of an all-male golf club wouldn't put me off wanting to visit Scotland, or play golf there, or watch a tournament there (Scotland, I mean).

Do the Scots Guards allow women? Does the Black Watch have women pipers and drummers?

Just trying to find something to relate this to in my mind.
 
Me neither, Shalimar. Nor was my mother in Eastern Star. My dad was a 33rd degree, Scottish Rite. He enjoyed it and I enjoyed visiting Freemason's Hall with him in London, but except for a very brief period when I was maybe a teenager, I never minded that I couldn't follow in his footsteps.

But for all that, good for Canada! :)
 
Funny I remember as a rebellious teen my Mom was so keen on me doing Rainbow Girls...the teen invitation to Eastern Star. Nope, I did not get it. Maybe the Mason's have a better retirement thing going on???
 
Laurie said:
What is even worse is that it is not even a democratic decision. The majority of members voted to admit women, but a simple majority is not sufficient to change the rule.
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I was not aware of that, Laurie. That makes it even worse.
 
Guitarist said:
I think there have to be some places in the world where like-minded people can still gather and have a good time, and this is after all a private club. That's one thing nice about being private, public laws can't be forced on you past a certain extent (and I have no idea what that extent is).

My dad was a Mason. The Masons don't allow women. I never had a problem with that. I think they're dying out now anyway. I don't have a problem with that either. My dad was certainly not a woman-hater; he never thought his daughters were second-class citizens to men.

Are you a member of this club, ossian? Can you vote with others to let women play?

The idea of an all-male golf club wouldn't put me off wanting to visit Scotland, or play golf there, or watch a tournament there (Scotland, I mean).

Do the Scots Guards allow women? Does the Black Watch have women pipers and drummers?

Just trying to find something to relate this to in my mind.
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No I am not a member of this club. I did say that I could understand the need to be selective when it came to the membership of some clubs. But this is a straightforward golf club. There are no unique or special reasons for them to exclude females. It is an outdated, elitist attitude, and as you imply, damages the image of Scotland and Scots. It also damages the local economy. There is significant pressure being brought on this club to change their decision and the hope is that reflecting on the reaction that there has been against their decision will bring about a change in their decision.
 
"Do the Scots Guards allow women? Does the Black Watch have women pipers and drummers? "

They certainly do!

We do, after all, have a woman as Head of State and a woman as Head of Government.
 
Allow? They should be inviting women.
And apologising for taking so long.

We had a similar situation in Sydney some years ago where female journalists could not be members of the AJC - Australian Journalists Club!!
The clubs are not just social. They are where business and professional connections are made and careers fostered/mentored and women are excluded.
Success isn't all about merit. It is as much about who you know.

These same clubs that won't admit women usually have similar bans on Jews and other ethnic groups.

Men only clubs still exist in OZ. Even our first female PM and first female Governor General could not be admitted as members although if they had a Y chromosome they would have been invited to join for free!.

The state of men-only clubs in Australia? Alive, well and popular.
06 Mar 2015
Lucia Osborne-Crowley

News of the LNP's event at Tattersall's Club this week got us thinking about men-only clubs. Do many still exist? How many are there? Do people actually frequent them?

The answer is yes. There are approximately 30 single sex clubs in Australia, and while these are mostly men-only, there are also a few women-only clubs across the country, too.

The Australian Club was founded in 1836, making it Australia’s oldest men-only club. Shortly afterwards, in 1838, the Melbourne Club was created, and then several of these clubs started appearing across Melbourne and Sydney, and then also in Brisbane, Hobart, Adelaide and Perth. To become a member, you have to be wealthy enough to afford the often-substantial membership fee – which can be upwards of a thousand dollars each year - but you also have to endure a long vetting process. Some clubs require up to eight influential referees to recommend a person before he is considered for membership. This process can take months, and even years in some cases.

These clubs are notoriously private. While it is impossible to say with certainty how much power these clubs and their membership yield, it is certainly true that many of Australia’s richest and most powerful men frequent these all-male clubs. The Australian Club boasts the membership of John Howard, James Packer, Kerry Packer and Andrew Peacock. Attorney General George Brandis was criticised in parliament in late 2014 for joining one of Melbourne’s most exclusive men only clubs, called the Savage Club.

Brandis defended his decision to frequent the club, saying it is not sexist:
“There’s nothing against the law of Australia for there to be men’s only clubs and there’s nothing against the law of Australia for there to be mixed clubs, nor should there, nor is that sexist. There is nothing against the law of Australia for there to be, for example, women’s only golf clubs,” he said.

The veracity of his last comment is questionable. Under the Equal Opportunity Act, a woman’s only golf club is required to offer a legitimate explanation to the courts as to why it must exclude men. If the justification is not considered sufficient, the women’s only golf club would be outlawed under the Act.
This occurred in 2010, when a women-only travel agency designed to keep women safe while abroad was struck down by the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal for being discriminatory.

But men-only clubs? They are exempt altogether from the Equal Opportunity Act. By law, they are not considered discriminatory, and do not have to go through any of the processes that organisations like a women only golf club do in order to be allowed to continue operating. In 2010 the Victorian Attorney General Rob Hulls made an attempt to remove this exemption for men-only clubs.

''I can't understand why they don't want outstanding leaders like Christine Nixon and Julia Gillard and the thousands of other brilliant, innovative women around the state to join their ranks,'' he said. He described the men-only clubs as an “amusing relic”. His attempt to repeal the exemption was denied by the Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee:

''The committee does not recommend a change that would prevent single-sex clubs from continuing their operations or require them to seek an exemption [to anti-discrimination laws] in order to continue their operations,'' the Committee’s report says. The clubs deny they are bastions of wealth and power by saying that under their regulations, business is not allowed to be conducted within their walls.

''No business can be discussed, no business cards exchanged, no deals done in any of these clubs. It is against the charter of all the clubs,” a club president told the Committee.

Unless another legal challenge surfaces soon, it seems the men-only clubs like the one the LNP will dine at this morning will continue to operate.
Perhaps the prime minister Tony Abbott was right when he described the Tattersall’s Club as a “bastion of chauvinism”, but unfortunately he was mistaken when he said the LNP was tearing it down. Men-only clubs are alive and well in Australia, and popular, too.

Despite the fact they seem out of place in 2015 – or even in the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century – perhaps they aren’t. As Senator Stephen Conroy asked George Brandis when he announced his membership to one of these elite clubs:

“Which institution is it harder for a woman to get into in 2014 — the Savage Club or the Abbott cabinet?”
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Warrigal said:
Allow? They should be inviting women.
And apologising for taking so long.

We had a similar situation in Sydney some years ago where female journalists could not be members of the AJC - Australian Journalists Club!!
The clubs are not just social. They are where business and professional connections are made and careers fostered/mentored and women are excluded.
Success isn't all about merit. It is as much about who you know.

These same clubs that won't admit women usually have similar bans on Jews and other ethnic groups.

Men only clubs still exist in OZ. Even our first female PM and first female Governor General could not be admitted as members although if they had a Y chromosome they would have been invited to join for free!.
Click to expand...

The man quoted in the article for the Scottish club was an idiot - marry a member and you can use the facilities. Pffftt.
 
The fallout from this lingers on this morning. In fact, it may actually be intensifying. Golf is embarrassed by this decision, the country is embarrassed by this decision, men [....mostly...] are embarrassed by it too.

What annoys me so much about this is the perception that it creates of Scots and the damage that it does to many good things that we have achieved in terms of equality - of all kinds - in this country. Not too long ago we put on a pretty impressive sporting festival - The Commonwealth Games. It was hailed as a fantastic success across the Commonwealth and beyond. Scotland does not rate highly when it comes to hosting major competitions like this, but we showed the world what we could do on that occasion and we have benefitted some since then. This nonsense may damage our reputation, generally, with world sports' bodies. Furthermore, as Laurie has mentioned, we have a female First Minister who once more will aim to achieve a gender balanced cabinet in Government. The leaders of our 3 main political parties in Scotland are all women, 2 of whom are lesbians. I think that we were ahead of many countries when it came to recognising same sex relationships through civil partnerships and subsequently, marriage.

But when it comes to it, a bunch of selfish, outdated old tossers can cause so much harm because they want to be a member of an organisation that proclaims their outdated elitist attitudes. As I said earlier, it would be good to learn who are members of this club. If they are in positions of power in any way - the law or government - then I think that should be known to allow the public to exercise their right to reject them in elections or avoid them when it comes to the law. And let's see them squirm when their names are disclosed.

:soangry:
 
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ossian said:
The fallout from this lingers on this morning. In fact, it may actually be intensifying. Golf is embarrassed by this decision, the country is embarrassed by this decision, men [....mostly...] are embarrassed by it too.

What annoys me so much about this is the perception that it creates of Scots and the damage that it does to many good things that we have achieved in terms of equality - of all kinds - in this country. Not too long ago we put on a pretty impressive sporting festival - The Commonwealth Games. It was hailed as a fantastic success across the Commonwealth and beyond. Scotland does not rate highly when it comes to hosting major competitions like this, but we showed the world what we could do on that occasion and we have benefitted some since then. This nonsense may damage our reputation, generally, with world sports' bodies. Furthermore, as Laurie has mentioned, we have a female First Minister who once more will aim to achieve a gender balanced cabinet in Government. The leaders of our 3 main political parties in Scotland are all women, 2 of whom are lesbians. I think that we were ahead of many countries when it came to recognising same sex relationships through civil partnerships and subsequently, marriage.

But when it comes to it, a bunch of selfish, outdated old tossers can cause so much harm because they want to be a member of an organisation that proclaims their outdated elitist attitudes. As I said earlier, it would be good to learn who are members of this club. If they are in positions of power in any way - the law or government - then I think that should be known to allow the public to exercise their right to reject them in elections or avoid them when it comes to the law. And let's see them squirm when their names are disclosed.

:soangry:
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Agree, Ossian!!
 
Thanks, Ameriscot.

Oh and another thing........ since I am on a rant. I have heard this decision referred to several times as the members having exercised their democratic right to continue to exclude women. This, in my opinion, was not a democratic choice. Of the membership, 64% voted to accept women. However, a 66% vote was required to enable the change to be made. Now, unless I am wrong, democracy is where the decision of the majority rules. The majority decision was not implemented in this case. So, how is that democratic?
 
Laurie said:
"Do the Scots Guards allow women? Does the Black Watch have women pipers and drummers? "

They certainly do!

We do, after all, have a woman as Head of State and a woman as Head of Government.
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Then things have changed for the better since the days when I wanted to be in the Horse Guards! (now the Blues and Royals). I played the instruments, could ride the horse, but didn't have the other necessary equipment. ;)

To me, the fact that a golf club in Scotland doesn't allow women doesn't affect my wanting to visit Scotland, or give me any desire to picket the club. As with US presidents, I'm kinda live and let live.

Now if it were a dressage barn, and I were planning a vacation to its area, and wanted to clinic with its head trainer, then I might think very differently ... but then again, if it were and I were and it didn't then I probably wouldn't. I would go clinic with Camilla or the Princess Royal (but not really in protest).
 
Apparently, the honourable gentlemen have had a rethink and are planning another vote. Maybe this time, they will get it right!
 
I think it's nice that they named a golf course in Scotland after Jack Nicklaus' course in Dublin, Ohio. It's where the Memorial Tournament is played. I'm sure Jack is pleased. That '"men only" rule is a problem, though. Jack would never approve of that.

Women were not allowed membership at Augusta National until 2012.
 

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