Do NOT believe the CV19 stats!

treeguy64

treeguy64

Hari Om, y'all!
Location
Austin, TX.
OK, I was quick to label those who were talking about the following as "conspiracy kooks," until I started investigating, on my own. Guess what? They were right!

Let's get into this: On its most basic level: When hospitals report a cv19 case, they get a payout from Medicare. When they report that a ventilator was used on a given case, they get even more money!

Now, the articles I read went on to say, after reporting the above, that the wonderful doctors would never report cases just to make more money. Oh no, what doctor would dream of misreporting such a thing to enrich himself and the hospital he works at? Perish the thought! All doctors are motivated by the urge to help people. They never consider such a crude thing as making more money, right? WRONG!!!

I'd bet that better than half of all doctors will label cases as Covid-19, precisely for the money that doing so will generate! Get that patient on a ventilator and.... BINGO! You've just hit the jackpot. (Never mind that research, out there, details that ventilators can, very likely, make things much worse for a patient if the positive pressure exerted actually facilitates the travel of the virus into the dark recesses of one's lungs!)

Also, you might think, "Hold on, there, TG, these doctors can't misreport what a patient has/what a patient died from! There are tests that'll need to be done for positive confirmation." BUZZ! Wrong answer! Even the CDC site explains, in its "*" postings, that stat cases are "probable" Covid-19 cases! Go look around, for yourself.

The above being the case, I'd also bet that the cv19 stats we see, each night, on the news, are about as reliable as the claims made by those "But wait!" products sold with 800 numbers on TV!

Start here, to begin doing your own research:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/3000638001
 

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I have been reading these reports for a week or so. I posted this a few days ago... not even Birx has any confidence in the numbers. https://www.yahoo.com/news/birx-said-nothing-cdc-trust-044212374.htm

Deborah Birx, the White House's coronavirus task force response coordinator, blasted the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in a White House coronavirus task force meeting during a discussion on COVID-19 data, according to The Washington Post. "There is nothing from the CDC that I can trust," she told CDC Director Robert Redfield, two people familiar with the meeting told the newspaper.

The Post reported that Birx and others feared that the CDC's statistics on mortality rate and case counts were inflated by up to 25%.
 
Just last night, I was reading a report from someone who was in law enforcement, and had attended to a victim from a motorcycle accident.
The person had survived long enough that the ambulance got him to the hospital, but then he died before they could do anything to save him.
The hospital gave him the virus test and found that he had the antibodies (or whatever it is that shows up in the test), and counted his death as covid rather than motorcycle accident. Since the deputy apparently needed the information for his report, he was shocked to read the results !
 

Happyflowerlady said:
Just last night, I was reading a report from someone who was in law enforcement, and had attended to a victim from a motorcycle accident.
The person had survived long enough that the ambulance got him to the hospital, but then he died before they could do anything to save him.
The hospital gave him the virus test and found that he had the antibodies (or whatever it is that shows up in the test), and counted his death as covid rather than motorcycle accident. Since the deputy apparently needed the information for his report, he was shocked to read the results !
Click to expand...
This sounds like an Urban Legend, to me, with sincere and all due respect. Unless someone posts a verifiable citation from a credible news source, I'm not giving it any thoughts of being based on actual facts.
 
Not going to argue any of these points, but would like to pose a couple of questions and point out a few things:

Do you suppose France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Ireland, Qatar, the UK and others who report even higher rates of infection and death than the US are gaming their systems? Brazil, Peru, Saudi Arabia, and Russia's numbers are exploding - are they getting sweet deals from their governments, too?

Most sources I've read are suggesting that the US's Covid-19 deaths have been underreported based on typical death rates for the same period of time over the past several years versus deaths this year.

I'm not suggesting that there is zero fraud going on, only that it's unlikely to be statistically significant. (Are large numbers of doctors putting patients on ventilators unnecessarily? Seems doubtful.)

It's in a hospital's best interest to not have COVID patients. The fewer they have, the faster they can get back to their pathway to serious revenue, which is elective surgeries and other normal activities. Right now, they're starving.

I was in a hospital ER a week ago. Let me tell you, it's costing them plenty to do all the entry COVID testing, to stream potential cases to a separate, highly sanitized wing, to have almost no patients in the ER, and to have suspended virtually all outpatient procedures. This is financially disastrous for hospitals, doctors, clinics, etc.

According to the article you linked, Jensen said, "Hospital administrators might well want to see COVID-19 attached to a discharge summary or a death certificate. Why? Because if it's a straightforward, garden-variety pneumonia that a person is admitted to the hospital for – if they're Medicare – typically, the diagnosis-related group lump sum payment would be $5,000. But if it's COVID-19 pneumonia, then it's $13,000, and if that COVID-19 pneumonia patient ends up on a ventilator, it goes up to $39,000."

So using the math above, for Medicare patients only, hospitals would get an extra $8,000 for Covid-19 patients, and if they go on a ventilator, an additional $26,000.

Furthermore, again quoting the article, there is this paragraph:

"AskFactCheck reporter Angelo Fichera, who interviewed Jensen, noted, "Jensen said he did not think that hospitals were intentionally misclassifying cases for financial reasons. But that’s how his comments have been widely interpreted and paraded on social media."'
 
Well, it's rather easy to skew stats to what you want them to be.
I view the COVID reports somewhat skeptically
I mean, how can number of cases pre capita be accurate if testing is so limited?

And hospitals/doctors?
I've never held with their 'reports'

Doctors.....sheeesh
Mine wanted me to start taking something for cholesterol
I said, 'But mine is reading fine'
She said, 'But at your age, you should be on something (whatever it was)'
Told her, 'Do you hear yourself?!'
Prolly just came from a seminar sponsored by a drug company
 
A major share of the data, concerning this virus, is a "best guess". Without really knowing what causes it, and how to treat it, there are few definitive answers. I'm sure there are some doctors and hospitals that are using this virus as a means of padding their pockets....like they do for almost any illness/treatment, but in this case, it's anyone's guess.

Many hospitals are losing money, because people are not going in for elective procedures....so, it would not surprise me that some of these institutions are getting "creative" in their diagnosis/treatment to maintain their finances.

One thing for sure....when the dust settles, we are going to see health insurance premiums rising substantially.
 
I have to say that there are a lot of theories and personal thoughts listed here, which should be no surprise given that we are dealing with such a global crisis.

I think I will just keep my thoughts to myself. However, I did find this on Snopes, if they are to be believed:

What's True
It is plausible that Medicare is paying hospital fees for some COVID-19 cases in the range of the figures given by Dr. Scott Jensen, a Minnesota state senator, during a Fox News interview.
What's False
However, Medicare says it does not make standard, one-size-fits-all payments to hospitals for patients admitted with COVID-19 diagnoses and placed on ventilators. The $13,000 and $39,000 figures appear to be based on generic industry estimates for admitting and treating patients with similar conditions
 
For me, it's so confusing on so many fronts. ... they say you can test positive on one day and negative the next and back again. I just don't understand the rules anymore. So what does the testing prove if that is the case. You would need to get tested over and over again. Some people get very sick, and others just test positive, and that's it. ... no issues or sickness.

Getting the test in the first place is a big challenge for most since so few have even been checked.

It is a virus that is mutating into many different things, for different people .... first the lung issues, and dry cough and trouble breathing, and then, it's little kids with rashes and heart problems in hospitals from it.

I just don't recall past viruses being so many different things, and constantly changing.
And how do you get a handle on the situation when no two experts agree on anything?
 
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StarSong said:
Not going to argue any of these points, but would like to pose a couple of questions and point out a few things:

Do you suppose France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Ireland, Qatar, the UK and others who report even higher rates of infection and death than the US are gaming their systems? Brazil, Peru, Saudi Arabia, and Russia's numbers are exploding - are they getting sweet deals from their governments, too?

Most sources I've read are suggesting that the US's Covid-19 deaths have been underreported based on typical death rates for the same period of time over the past several years versus deaths this year.

I'm not suggesting that there is zero fraud going on, only that it's unlikely to be statistically significant. (Are large numbers of doctors putting patients on ventilators unnecessarily? Seems doubtful.)

It's in a hospital's best interest to not have COVID patients. The fewer they have, the faster they can get back to their pathway to serious revenue, which is elective surgeries and other normal activities. Right now, they're starving.

I was in a hospital ER a week ago. Let me tell you, it's costing them plenty to do all the entry COVID testing, to stream potential cases to a separate, highly sanitized wing, to have almost no patients in the ER, and to have suspended virtually all outpatient procedures. This is financially disastrous for hospitals, doctors, clinics, etc.

According to the article you linked, Jensen said, "Hospital administrators might well want to see COVID-19 attached to a discharge summary or a death certificate. Why? Because if it's a straightforward, garden-variety pneumonia that a person is admitted to the hospital for – if they're Medicare – typically, the diagnosis-related group lump sum payment would be $5,000. But if it's COVID-19 pneumonia, then it's $13,000, and if that COVID-19 pneumonia patient ends up on a ventilator, it goes up to $39,000."

So using the math above, for Medicare patients only, hospitals would get an extra $8,000 for Covid-19 patients, and if they go on a ventilator, an additional $26,000.

Furthermore, again quoting the article, there is this paragraph:

"AskFactCheck reporter Angelo Fichera, who interviewed Jensen, noted, "Jensen said he did not think that hospitals were intentionally misclassifying cases for financial reasons. But that’s how his comments have been widely interpreted and paraded on social media."'
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Sorry, but what you quoted from the article exactly goes along with my main contention:

Hell yeah, the hospitals want that cv19 money, no two ways about it!

The quote about the doctors, and "financial reasons" for misclassifying, also applies to the above.

As for the other countries you mention, I have no idea how they operate.

FWIW, the scarf/shawl fetishist, Birx, recently went on record with the statement that she believes about 25% of the cv19 stats are overstated. To me, that means that more than 50% are overstated.
 
Thank you for posting the link to the USA Today article. It's a source I find reasonably trustworthy. The most interesting part of the article for me was:

Jensen said he thinks the overall number of COVID-19 cases have been undercounted based on limitations in the number of tests available.

So even though the person quoted raises the reasons why some would over report COVID-19 cases, he still thinks they are being undercounted.
 
asp3 said:
Thank you for posting the link to the USA Today article. It's a source I find reasonably trustworthy. The most interesting part of the article for me was:

Jensen said he thinks the overall number of COVID-19 cases have been undercounted based on limitations in the number of tests available.

So even though the person quoted raises the reasons why some would over report COVID-19 cases, he still thinks they are being undercounted.
Click to expand...
I'd agree that it's quite likely. I don't know what the rules are in other locations, but around here it's very difficult to get a test. So one should figure plenty of people have it, but don't know it because they can't get tested. And that doesn't even include those who have the virus without symptoms.
 
StarSong said:
Not going to argue any of these points, but would like to pose a couple of questions and point out a few things:

Do you suppose France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Ireland, Qatar, the UK and others who report even higher rates of infection and death than the US are gaming their systems? Brazil, Peru, Saudi Arabia, and Russia's numbers are exploding - are they getting sweet deals from their governments, too?

Most sources I've read are suggesting that the US's Covid-19 deaths have been underreported based on typical death rates for the same period of time over the past several years versus deaths this year.

I'm not suggesting that there is zero fraud going on, only that it's unlikely to be statistically significant. (Are large numbers of doctors putting patients on ventilators unnecessarily? Seems doubtful.)

It's in a hospital's best interest to not have COVID patients. The fewer they have, the faster they can get back to their pathway to serious revenue, which is elective surgeries and other normal activities. Right now, they're starving.

I was in a hospital ER a week ago. Let me tell you, it's costing them plenty to do all the entry COVID testing, to stream potential cases to a separate, highly sanitized wing, to have almost no patients in the ER, and to have suspended virtually all outpatient procedures. This is financially disastrous for hospitals, doctors, clinics, etc.

According to the article you linked, Jensen said, "Hospital administrators might well want to see COVID-19 attached to a discharge summary or a death certificate. Why? Because if it's a straightforward, garden-variety pneumonia that a person is admitted to the hospital for – if they're Medicare – typically, the diagnosis-related group lump sum payment would be $5,000. But if it's COVID-19 pneumonia, then it's $13,000, and if that COVID-19 pneumonia patient ends up on a ventilator, it goes up to $39,000."

So using the math above, for Medicare patients only, hospitals would get an extra $8,000 for Covid-19 patients, and if they go on a ventilator, an additional $26,000.

Furthermore, again quoting the article, there is this paragraph:

"AskFactCheck reporter Angelo Fichera, who interviewed Jensen, noted, "Jensen said he did not think that hospitals were intentionally misclassifying cases for financial reasons. But that’s how his comments have been widely interpreted and paraded on social media."'
Click to expand...

I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right here.

I can tell you that this situation is affecting our budget and if it continues we may be looking at layoffs down the line. Some people in certain depts. of our hospital had to be laid off because their depts. had to close until this settled down.

However, I too have read that they make more money from Medicare for things but, I doubt they would be able to get away with misclassifying like you said.
 

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