Do you believe that everyone deserves housing?

[Stoppelmann]

The problem with rights and "free-spirited" people is that there is little opportunity to choose an alternative to the society we have built. We have regulated everything so tightly (and consider it good) that when younger generations look at the mess we've made and try to find a different solution, it is considered ingratitude and laziness. It is also a fact that our society was built or rebuilt in a general spirit of optimism that carried people along, and younger generations are told, "Take it or leave it!"

Today, you can only feasibly build an existence in a society by obeying laws and accepting restrictions and limitations—enough people have died in the wilderness trying their hand at alternative lifestyles. The days of new frontiers are in the past, and exceptions only prove the rule. There are structures that prevent innovation unless you are very fortunate, and patents are a restriction on later generations that were unthinkable hundreds of years ago.

Numerous young people have also seen their parents "live to work" rather than "work to live" and have seen how relationships and health have suffered under that rule. It is not easy to find ways to live differently, as my son discovered when he tried his hand at self-employment the first time. The pressure that the tax office puts on new businesses can easily quash new enterprises, and it did. Fortunately, he was able to make a new start, but it wasn't easy.

So I think that my generation should be cautious in their criticisms of younger people, who often feel caged with few possibilities.

 

[papa tiger]

I see too many young supposidly homeless people standing on the stop light corners. Bottles of water and Cola, new back packs and nice clothes. It's their job. Sometimes they have their kids along. Men, Women, kids. It's their job. If it wasn't organized there would be street fights over the corners. They routinely change shifts and someone else takes the corners. Hundreds across a City. I watched a guy on an Exit of a
Interstate up north for 10 years. His wife a dentist. Later I saw him on a street corner in Santa Rosa Fla. in February. PHD. Panhandling.
This past Fall a +60 year-old in a mom and pops, new backpack new SOG axe in Backpack. He said he chopped up his firewood at his tent.
I didn't tell him that would most likely be considered a concealed weapon if the LEO spotted him in a store. They most likely would have taken
him back to his tent. The future has to be about middle-aged people savings. $50 a day isn't gonna carry the costs of living. A tent is the
possible future for most of them. I'm guessing a not-for-profit RED CROSS disaster organization &: more Bureaucracy. Armed Robbery is
another lockup possibility with health insurance, no taxes of living costs.

Chic; The conflicts - going -to- war is a Mind game played by very cruel people. If it wasn't for the Gamers what would they
Hide the money from theft at ?

 

[againstthegrain]

In the U.S. some of the money spent funding foreign wars could be used instead to house the homeless. This is just one of many novel ideas of mine.

All military spending could stop tomorrow, but the unspent monies would never be spent on the needs of poor human beings, there are corps that need fed and housed see post #24. And you know "bootstraps."

 

[Teacher Terry]

In the U.S. some of the money spent funding foreign wars could be used instead to house the homeless. This is just one of many novel ideas of mine.

Between all the wars, foreign aid, wasted money by our government, taxes too low on corporations and wealthy people we wouldn’t have a homeless problem if we redirected that money. It won’t happen of course because big money is made on wars and it’s poor people’s kids that fight those wars.

 

[oldaunt]

Everyone DESERVES the right to be feed, clothed and sheltered in a safe environment. The question is …. Where does the obligation to provide those things fall?

My grandmother was always quite fond of reminding me"God helps those who help themselves"

 

[JBR]

The problem with rights and "free-spirited" people is that there is little opportunity to choose an alternative to the society we have built. We have regulated everything so tightly (and consider it good) that when younger generations look at the mess we've made and try to find a different solution, it is considered ingratitude and laziness. It is also a fact that our society was built or rebuilt in a general spirit of optimism that carried people along, and younger generations are told, "Take it or leave it!"

Stoppelmann, as I recall you're British but have been living in Germany. To which society are you referring in this post?

 

[papa tiger]

↑ You're saying Life, Liberty, pursuit of Happiness, serving ones Country are just all illusions, a Con ? Haha ...
..... Youth make the best soldiers; remember the draft, 18 year olds, they operate in a mindset of immortality.
It's that or flip burgers !

 

[JBR]

Between all the wars, foreign aid, wasted money by our government, taxes too low on corporations and wealthy people we wouldn’t have a homeless problem if we redirected that money. It won’t happen of course because big money is made on wars and it’s poor people’s kids that fight those wars.

Do you think that with re-arranged priorities the homeless problem could be completely solved? CallMeKate has had experience in crisis counseling, I've picked up a lot of hitchhikers & occasionally offered people shelter & food for a few days or a week. We've each posted to the effect that a certain percentage of individuals do not wish to be supported or cared for by conventional or gov't-supported programs.

What is you view on that?

 

[Teacher Terry]

Do you think that with re-arranged priorities the homeless problem could be completely solved? CallMeKate has had experience in crisis counseling, I've picked up a lot of hitchhikers & occasionally offered people shelter & food for a few days or a week. We've each posted to the effect that a certain percentage of individuals do not wish to be supported or cared for by conventional or gov't-supported programs.

What is you view on that?

No I was both a social worker and then worked evaluating people with disabilities to help them obtain employment and I know that it’s impossible to obtain that goal. However, large shelters have big problems that can’t all be eliminated. Some
communities are having more success with tiny home communities.

You will always have severely mentally ill people that won’t take medication and substance abusers that won’t get clean and sober. However, the majority could be helped including homeless families.

 

[fuzzybuddy]

I don't think they have a right to a livable home, but whether that we have an obligation to them.

 

[Nathan]

In the U.S. some of the money spent funding foreign wars could be used instead to house the homeless. This is just one of many novel ideas of mine.

Indeed many of the homeless are veterans that fought in wars, but have come home only to fall through the cracks in a society that no longer has any need or compassion for them.

 

[Paco Dennis]

As an intentional community we don't have personal property. Many people live in a building that we share. It is far from "civilization, and we are able to live free of many of the constraints that others in our society face. We collectively and individually don't make enough $ to exceed the poverty level. That way we live very simply, and don't have modern things. Most everything we DIY with. Our farming, gardening, wood gathering, entertainment, and a very healthy bunch of friends is all we have. So there is an alternative to being in the rat race.

People who don't work, don't eat, is our motto ( except if you are unable to ) then you are provided for.

 

[Stoppelmann]

Stoppelmann, as I recall you're British but have been living in Germany. To which society are you referring in this post?

Western society's youth is presented with a "take it or leave it" option, but they have no means to "leave it." We are also conditioned towards a certain lifestyle in ways that are deeply restrictive. Our choices should be increasing, but there is a move towards authoritarian policies that want to restrict even more. My son's experience is with the German economy.

 

[Paco Dennis]

I think the nuclear family ideal is on it's way out. We will be forced into living together in ways we never thought possible. Sharing is the next big thing. How we do it is the conundrum.

 

[hollydolly]

Indeed many of the homeless are veterans that fought in wars, but have come home only to fall through the cracks in a society that no longer has any need or compassion for them.

this is one of several Instances where Homes should be an automatic offer. No person who has ever fought for their country, should be refused a home in their own country. If they refuse it that's a different matter..

Unfortunately in the Uk also there is no priority either for Ex serviceman to be housed. Our city streets are lined with ex servicemen sleeping on the streets it's a national disgrace !

 

[Knight]

Why do you presume that all taxes should be borne by households ie hourly workers?

"The top corporate tax rate in the U.S. fell from a high of 53% in 1942 to a maximum of 38% in 1993, which remained in effect until 2018, although corporations in the top bracket were taxed at a rate of 35% between 1993 and 2017.[31]

After the passage of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, on December 20, 2017, the corporate tax rate changed to a flat 21%, starting January 1, 2018.[32]"


Not only have corp tax rates fallen, there are 1000's of pages of loopholes to be exploited as well.

"At least 55 of the largest corporations in America paid no federal corporate income taxes in their most recent fiscal year despite enjoying substantial pretax profits in the United States. This continues a decades-long trend of corporate tax avoidance by the biggest U.S. corporations, and it appears to be the product of long-standing tax breaks preserved or expanded by the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) as well as the CARES Act tax breaks enacted in the spring of 2020."

Read it and weep

There will be an impact on households . The reference was only to point out that legal would entails taxes.

 

[againstthegrain]

There will be an impact on households . The reference was only to point out that legal would entails taxes.

Perhaps proper housing would become a positive for "households" so some formerly homeless may become productive members of society generating income tax/sales tax, etc and/or reducing the need for other tax-payer provided services.

You provided a great example of that in the Maine town that invited immigrants to subsidized housing will likely go on to become long term tax paying citizens/renters/homeowners/workers and do a great deal to insure that town doesn't die a slow death as young people move to cities and reproductive rates decline.

 

[Gary O']

Gary, have you published a memoir from those years? Or, do you plan to?

I've got this manuscript that I dust off ever so often

May do that
Or let the kids try, once I'm gone

 

[hearlady]

How can you say no?

 

[Gary O']

The word "deserves" is the emotional tag, meaning being worthy. So in that regard yes, I think that all humans are worthy of access to the standard of living that most in our society take for granted.

'Access'

Great word

Not a hand out, but access.....to opportunity.... for those able

Makes room in the budget for the disabled

 

[VintageBetter]

By your remark, 'not posted to argue' do you mean 'please do not disagree?' If so, I will abide by your rule.

Wow. We are separated by a common language.

When I said, "not posted to argue" I was referring to my INTENT for the topic, since it is controversial. In other words, I'm not posting the topic to bait people. (As is the practice of some on some websites.)

Others can argue away; argue with one another! It's okay by me. I was only referring to my intentions.

 

[VintageBetter]

What about for homeless Seniors who can't work due to disabilities, or no one will hire them because they'd much rather hire the 20-year-old to work at their fast food joint?

Do homeless Seniors deserve stable, affordable housing? (Anyone see the Film Nomadland or read the book? That was not a fictional story. It's still happening all over the U.S.)

Do the mentally ill, blind, and seriously physically disabled deserve affordable, stable housing?

 

[VintageBetter]

I'd like to add a little bit to this thought... you're absolutely right. I did a short stint with crisis counseling and while everyone *should* have that place to stay, shower, etc. it's incorrect to assume they all WANT it... so when you say "you can't force participation," that's exactly the problem.

I was always shocked at the number of homeless people who did not want to stay at a shelter. Did not want help. I've seen police officers offer to take people to a place to stay whether it was a shelter or other places offering a roof, food, and shower. More often than you'd believe, they simply wouldn't go. Human right or not, it's not so cut and dried as to think it's what they all want.

When I have talked to the homeless who do not like shelters, and I have only conversed with a few, or read their comments in the local papers, they say they dislike them because they are not safe, their stuff gets stolen, and they don't like some of the rough company they are forced to stay with.

I had a brother I loved who died 3+ years ago, but even though I cared for him and we talked often, I would live in my car any day of the week before I would live with him because he would try to control me if I lived with him, or constantly criticize me, or spy on me, or even steal my stuff. He was not the most functional of guys.

So, I have a lot of empathy for these homeless who don't want to stay the night in a shelter with the roughest of the lot, or the most dysfunctional of their group, or the mentally ill.

But see, this is what we do in society. When we hear that word "homeless" we throw them all into the same pool of miscreants in our minds and many of us believe, "Oh, homeless? Go over there with the rest of them..." as if they are ALL identical!!!

That's like saying all women are alike, or all Latinos are alike, or all Germans think alike. It's prejudice. It's people-sorting for the purpose of setting agendas.

 

[OneEyedDiva]

By your remark, 'not posted to argue' do you mean 'please do not disagree?' If so, I will abide by your rule.

There's disagreeing nicely (agreeing to disagree), then there's disagreeing by becoming contentious. Some threads here have become contentious of late, which is why Vintage added that sentence.

@VintageBetter Re: your question. I absolutely believe that everyone deserves to be housed, unless they are criminals (especially dangerous ones)...then they deserved to be jailed.

 

[VaughanJB]

Open discussion and not posted to argue.

I believe basic, semi-permanent housing, meaning a room plus access to a shower and a toilet, are a basic human right. Many states say "shelter" is good enough for the homeless, but they do not define shelter at all. It can mean anything from a tent to a giant warehouse filled with bunk beds and bed bugs. Shelter can mean there are no working showers.

What do you think? Do even the lowest of the low deserve to have the right to take a shower everyday and sleep in a bed, with walls and a roof?

Especially galling in our society is how prisoners have rights to all these things: roof, matress, food, showers, toilets. But the homeless do not.

In the richest country in the world, and that the world has ever seen, you'd think basic housing would have been worked out by now. But introduce capitalism, and you have a system that is largely predicated on haves, and have-nots. The system today - which can be simplified to having money to spare or not - depends on some humans missing out and being on the bottom rung.

In other words, the main problem the homeless have is that no-one has yet found a way to make money from them. There is no profit to be made, and simply doing the right thing isn't enough. So the homeless will remain homeless.

As an aside, the numbers for 2022 were just announced, and 107,941 Americans died of drug overdoses in that year. That's twice the number of Americans who died in Vietnam, and 25% of Americans who died in all of World War II.