Do you believe that everyone deserves housing?

VaughanJB said:
Yes, and no. Part of what allows people to have things is the cost. Business relies on lowering the cost of everything to its very minimum, with very few exceptions. In order to have things cheap, someone has to earning very little.

This always makes me curious when people talk about moving manufacturing back to the US (or the UK). Fine, that can happen, no problem. But who is going to be able to afford the goods they make? Let's not forget the reason manufacturing went abroad in the first place. The wages paid to labor in China, Vietnam, Taiwan, are not feasible in the US. No-one could compete. So, are these people really saying they are willing to pay 10X or 20X (or more) the cost of their products to support US manufactured items?

People who put iPhones together in China earn less than $3 an hour. In India they get less than $200 a month, and in Vietnam it's $1.28 an hour. Apple are slowly moving manufacturing out of China to these other countries because they can save money! Yet do people avoid Apple products? Of course not. In fact, they're popular. Doesn't this suggest we really don't care?

As such, the middle class very much relies on the have-nots.
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In the Norman Rockwell version of "Our Society in 2024", this is true. That is dissolving. As it dissolves we have a chance to mold a different picture of society. This is a BIG election year. Our future depends on how we want our future to be. If I don't get involved in helping create this, then who will? I am not going to let the paint dry on Rockwell's painting. I/we will have a say in how it operates...demand it.
 

VaughanJB said:
But it IS just about perfect. Once you accept that rules of the game is predicated on haves, and have-nots, then you can't complain about their existence. Why are there homeless on the streets, why are there people working minimum wage, why are many of our goods manufactured abroad? Because the system dictates it should be this way.

To prevent it, you have to look beyond the system, such as socialized medicine (which isn't "free" in actuality, but we won't go there). With socialized medicine delivery of healthcare is free, though the mechanisms of capitalism operate in terms of supply of materials (drugs etc.)

Still, telling a homeless family that it's a shame they're homeless, but the system requires both winners and losers, isn't likely to bring anyone comfort.
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The pendulum swings, both extremes are evil. I do not accept a single word that you said above and do not approve of socialism, the idea being darling but I call it too damn close to communism. In a republic we at least have a chance, however small, of improving things. We will disagree forever.
 

Paco Dennis said:
Maybe if we voted for people who would fight for jobs being created and brought back to the US so we could have a functioning middle class, then the homeless would have some work to do. As it is, the job market seems awful uninviting, with narrow possibilities for secure and interesting work. Humans need something to do during the day that is productive. We need to, as a republic, is vote this into happening. But one has to really care and get involved, or at least pay attention to the candidates, and converse with hem and their platforms.
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My aunt who lived in New York told me, 'You vote them in honest. Within a week they're corrupt.'
 
gruntlabor said:
The pendulum swings, both extremes are evil. I do not accept a single word that you said above and do not approve of socialism, the idea being darling but I call it too damn close to communism. In a republic we at least have a chance, however small, of improving things. We will disagree forever.
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That's fine, I think there are lots of things we disagree on, it's all good. There's nothing about Socialism that means you can't improve things, but that's not the argument here. Social medicine might be construed as "socialism", but if the rest of the economy is capitalist, I'd say the republic would be safe. But again, that's a whole other topic, and one not worth having. :)

I never see that pendulum swing in favor of the have-nots though. I think it might be broken.
 
oldaunt said:
{{It's built right into our society. People feel better about themselves because they have a larger house, a newer car, designer clothes, and so on. They tend to judge themselves against people who have less and wallow in it a bit,}}

This does not apply to everyone, just the shallow, self involved people.
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Virtually nothing we could ever say or write would be applicable to everyone. But if you look at the modern society, how can you conclude it's any other way than I outlined?

Kir7 said:
May we be rewarded according to our merits. Bible
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And who decides what has merit? Besides, the world clearly doesn't work this way, since there are plenty of rich bad people.
 
gruntlabor said:
The pendulum swings, both extremes are evil. I do not accept a single word that you said above and do not approve of socialism, the idea being darling but I call it too damn close to communism. In a republic we at least have a chance, however small, of improving things. We will disagree forever.
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In a republic everyone's vote has the same import. When the political machine dictates how we vote, then our choices are demolished. WE make the political landscape, not only the wealthy. WE want it to be more fair...demand it. We need more jobs...demand it.. They work for us, and I am more than tired of doing the masters bidding.
 
gruntlabor said:
My aunt who lived in New York told me, 'You vote them in honest. Within a week they're corrupt.'
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This is so true, and I do a lot of thinking about this. We have to follow through. We have to stay involved in our decision making. I know we would like to hand it off...but that is why it is so corrupt...we quit paying attention, and we have better things to do. Really?
 
Paco Dennis said:
In a republic everyone's vote has the same import. When the political machine dictates how we vote, then our choices are demolished. WE make the political landscape, not only the wealthy. WE want it to be more fair...demand it. We need more jobs...demand it.. They work for us, and I am more than tired of doing the masters bidding.
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It's a major problem in the western world. Being a politician has become a job unto itself. It's no longer about representing and helping the communities who voted them in, it's about self.

The average salary in the UK is £35K per year. The basic salary of an MP? Almost £87K. And that's without all the expenses and perks.

In the US, the average salary nationwide is $60K. Member of the house? $174K.

Something has gone monstrously wrong with the system.
 
VaughanJB said:
There's nothing about Socialism that means you can't improve things ...

I never see that pendulum swing in favor of the have-nots though. I think it might be broken.
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Yes, potentially there is. It's called 'central control encroaching'. And the pendulum is not broken, we're in the far swing of the have-nots right now. People are afraid to leave their homes!
 
A commonly heard phrase in my life was " __________ should be taught in schools." Often in reference to something that isn't academic in nature. Isn't public education essentially a socialist venture?
 
Flarbalard said:
A commonly heard phrase in my life was " __________ should be taught in schools." Often in reference to something that isn't academic in nature. Isn't public education essentially a socialist venture?
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We make policies to organize our society. So, most of it has to do with socialism. We as voters remain the controlling force though.
 
gruntlabor said:
Yes, potentially there is. It's called 'central control encroaching'. And the pendulum is not broken, we're in the far swing of the have-nots right now. People are afraid to leave their homes!
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We can't even agree on the pendulum, and which way it's swinging. For me, it's certainly not swinging toward the have nots right now, quite the opposite. :D

This is the world we've created.
 
Flarbalard said:
A commonly heard phrase in my life was " __________ should be taught in schools." Often in reference to something that isn't academic in nature. Isn't public education essentially a socialist venture?
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School's need to seriously get back to being about academics. Too many people leave school today functionally illiterate and ill-prepared for the real world.

I often think this when watching various Bodycam Cop shows on Youtube. US cops get called and involved in instances that would never happen in the UK. It's like the job of a cop in the US is to help everyone get along rather than simply upholding the law. It's a different brand of policing.
 
oldaunt said:
Maybe because far too many "have nots" have dropped off the pendulum in favor of handouts instead of working to improve their situation.
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Nah, that's a tired old trope. I don't know if it was ever true, but it's not true today, imo. How many jobs are out there for someone living in a tent in the middle of the street, you think?
 
@Kir7 I was sincere in my questions, especially about merit, because I feel it is very relevant to this topic. Lets find out what merit "is".
Examples
  1. Diligence
  2. Responsibility
  3. Integrity
  4. Perseverance
  5. Intelligence
  6. Creativity
  7. Empathy
  8. Resilience
  9. Adaptability
  10. Honesty
  11. Accountability
  12. Leadership
  13. Collaboration
  14. Communication
  15. Commitment
  16. Courage
  17. Fairness
  18. Optimism
  19. Respect
  20. Compassion
    So, people should be rewarded by how well they behave in these manners. These are also qualities that would go along with whether or not a person is homeless. Now lets say I have most of these qualities, but I loose my job, or something terrible happens that disrupts my life? I can be all those things and in todays environment it doesn't mean very much. The market doesn't care, it only cares if there is profit involved. How is it that the citizens become victims of the system they made?
 
Paco Dennis said:
When the political machine dictates how we vote, then our choices are demolished.
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But that's where we are at, political parties control our votes by limiting our choices. Try getting someone elected or even on the ballot without a parties backing, very unlikely.

I think every voting ticket should have a "none of the above" option, many times that's the best choice.
 
Paco Dennis said:
@Kir7

Now lets say I have most of these qualities, but I loose my job, or something terrible happens that disrupts my life? I can be all those things and in todays environment it doesn't mean very much. The market doesn't care, it only cares if there is profit involved. How is it that the citizens become victims of the system they made?
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I once heard an interview of an American migrant who was suffering in the Great Depression. 'I saw myself in a store window as I passed by. I was filthy, I didn't even recognize myself.' --paraphrased
 
VaughanJB said:
People who put iPhones together in China earn less than $3 an hour. In India they get less than $200 a month, and in Vietnam it's $1.28 an hour. Apple are slowly moving manufacturing out of China to these other countries because they can save money! Yet do people avoid Apple products? Of course not. In fact, they're popular. Doesn't this suggest we really don't care?

As such, the middle class very much relies on the have-nots.
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Well, there is some truth in what you say, but I think there is more truth than what you wrote. For example, Apple is moving some production out of China due to costs. That is correct. It shows that as countries develop their standard of living rises and that often means wages rise also. Overall that is good for the Chinese people.

But, there is another reason for moving out of China. Transportation costs are up which negates some of the cost advantage. The new leader is a one man authoritarian show. The Chinese Communist Party is increasingly flexing its muscles to control what business do, and make sure it syncs with Leader‘s goals. Chinese business leaders have mysteriously disappeared for a few months and then returned to the public eye. New laws make foreign business people unsure about being accused of spying or subversion and tossed in a Chinese jail. And, of course, if war breaks out over Taiwan, getting products made and out of China may be a big problem.

There are a lot of reasons besides cost to move production to other countries.
 
VaughanJB said:
Nah, that's a tired old trope. I don't know if it was ever true, but it's not true today, imo. How many jobs are out there for someone living in a tent in the middle of the street, you think?
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I found quite a few actually, when I was living in my truck. Maybe not conventional, but they gave me a leg up til I could do better. And actually, I still know a couple folks today still climbing up the same way. Your vision is too limited.
 
VaughanJB said:
Many? How did you deduce it was many?

It seems to me that the only homeless to ever reach the media and the drug addicted and diseased. You can't expect to pick up a drug addicted person and have them turn into a suburbanite by handing them the keys to a door. On the other hand, there are people that are homeless for many other reasons, be it ill-health, losing jobs, etc. For the drug addicted, they need treatment first and foremost.

I don't think drug addicted people who turn down accommodation with rules are choosing the street over a home. They're addicted, and the choice is largely out of their hands.
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I think I missed explaining my point. In my area drug users can be offered treatment, but there is no way to compel treatment. Oregon has found that out since they decriminalized a lot of drugs. Portugal has found that out as open drug use becomes more common. Users can start treatment and simply walk out. There is no legal way to compel them to stay. It’s sad and I wish I knew a way to convince them to choose treatment and stick with it.

I believe most homelessness is actually drug and mental problems disguised as a drug problem. Drug usage is a primary disease. (I learned this from drug counselors when I tried to help a relative with a drug usage problem.) That means it’s not secondary and it does not need another problem to encourage it. They don’t use drugs because they are homeless. They are homeless because they use drugs. People don’t have mental issues because they are homeless. They are homeless because they have mental issues. Treatment is needed, but it can’t be compelled. This is sad.
 

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