Do you feel that a College Education/Degree should be Free?

L

Lon

Well-known Member
Location
Central California
I don't, but this is being proposed by Presidential Candidate Bernie Sanders in response to the massive student debt problem. There are so many negatives about a government providing a free university education I don't know where to begin.
 

I believe that at least the first TWO years.. ie.. an associates degree... which can be obtained from a Community College... as well as education in a Trade at a trade school SHOULD be free..

Give it a shot LON.... Since there are "SO MANY NEGATIVES" list a few for us.... I mean other than some of you tax loopholes might be eliminated..
 
I will have student debt until I die. IMHO if somebody can swing higher education being free, it would give a lot more people a lot more opportunities.
 

Yes I do. I imagine the costs of obtaining university level education are similar in both our countries. Even though they both worked, and, in the case of my DIL who graduates from law school this year, still does throughout university, they still have a

huge debt load. The cost of this type of education is sky high compared to what my generation paid. In the province of.
Newfoundland, Canada, university tuition is now free. In a world where often two degrees are required to ensure a decent career, hard work and dedication should be rewarded, not saddled with crippling debt. Certainly in the area of the sciences, in particular, the advantages are obvious.
 
It is already free here for those who qualify for government grants and burseries, based on merit and need. I agree that more funding should be available, but I don't think it should be completely free, as it can be abused by some.

My son received a scholarship in addition to a loan as a mature student. The interest rate was very low and if one isn't working it can be deferred until the person finds a job. He was able to pay it all off over time without any problem. But then he chose a career in which jobs were readily available. Some people choose careers where there are no jobs (anthropologist?) and end up working in a bakery or coffee shop for pittance.
 
Yes, I do. There are too many uneducated people in America. If we can remedy this, if we can give people, not just big corporations, a few breaks, why not do it?
 
What gets me is that some folks expect people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps... work hard... maybe 2 or 3 jobs.. (that don't exist) or are minimum wage...YET want them to be more responsible for their kids and better parents... (hard to do if you are away working 2 or 3 jobs)... Then complain when they may be taxed more so people can get an education so they can find better paying jobs.. So the bottom line

Pull your self up.. I did it so can you.... yet refuse to see that higher education is simply out of reach to most.. Working one's way through college while supporting kids on a minimum wage job is a fantasy of the Wealthy..

Way back in the day it WAS possible to work ones way through college by waitressing or bussing tables.. College tuition has skyrocketed and that is no longer possible
 
QuickSilver said:
I believe that at least the first TWO years.. ie.. an associates degree... which can be obtained from a Community College... as well as education in a Trade at a trade school SHOULD be free..

Give it a shot LON.... Since there are "SO MANY NEGATIVES" list a few for us.... I mean other than some of you tax loopholes might be eliminated..
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My one child (a daughter) grew up in a very middle class enviornment, as did I, and graduated from a state universiity with a BS degree. She married her high school sweetheart who also grew up in a very middle class enviornment. He graduated from a state university and earned a degree in engineering. They married and had three children (now married adults with their own children.) My three grandchildren graduated from a state university each earning BS degrees. My daughter, sil, and grand children never had to use student loans because they all worked part time to earn some of their university costs and the rest was subsidised by the parents. I now have three great grand children that I hope will follow in their parents footsteps. I started a 529 Plan for each great grandchild when they were born and make additional contributions for their birth days and Xmas. I did this for my grand children. In addition to the Korean GI Bill which paid for part of my education I had to work to pay the balance and support a wife and child.

Much of the present student debt subsidised a lot of fun and good times instead of just books and tuition. Don't I wish that my Korean GI Bill had paid enough for me to vacation during Easter Break in Cancun.

Higher education is not and should not be free. I fully support Public Education up to the 12th year as well as two year community colleges and IMHO should be handled locally on the state level via taxes.

At one time in California, trade classes were incorporated into the high schools. One could learn air conditioning, carpentry, auto mechanics, plumbing as well as the three R's. This I could and would support.
 
Lon said:
My one child (a daughter) grew up in a very middle class enviornment, as did I, and graduated from a state universiity with a BS degree. She married her high school sweetheart who also grew up in a very middle class enviornment. He graduated from a state university and earned a degree in engineering. They married and had three children (now married adults with their own children.) My three grandchildren graduated from a state university each earning BS degrees. My daughter, sil, and grand children never had to use student loans because they all worked part time to earn some of their university costs and the rest was subsidised by the parents. I now have three great grand children that I hope will follow in their parents footsteps. I started a 529 Plan for each great grandchild when they were born and make additional contributions for their birth days and Xmas. I did this for my grand children. In addition to the Korean GI Bill which paid for part of my education I had to work to pay the balance and support a wife and child.

Much of the present student debt subsidised a lot of fun and good times instead of just books and tuition. Don't I wish that my Korean GI Bill had paid enough for me to vacation during Easter Break in Cancun.


Higher education is not and should not be free. I fully support Public Education up to the 12th year as well as two year community colleges and IMHO should be handled locally on the state level via taxes.

At one time in California, trade classes were incorporated into the high schools. One could learn air conditioning, carpentry, auto mechanics, plumbing as well as the three R's. This I could and would support.
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Read my post above... lon... You are living in the past. It's simply not possible to pay for college.. by working a minimum wage job... particularly if you are supporting yourself and your family... and don't have the luxury of mooching off mom and dad while doing so.

Most people need to support themselves or their families NOW... not in 2 or 4 years... another case to be made for raising the minimum wage.
 
Reality, Practicality

This is a loaded question because cost, practicality and obligation all have different roles to play. In certain economies domestic and international yes tuition or training should be free. But others no.

BUT free or government subsidized education will reduce choice because not all schools could afford to operate at a government dictated rate of reimbursement. Does this mean more public 4 year and post graduate schools? And with any government subsidized program there will be fraud and bills for the tax payer to pay.

Ironically it is student debt that is being blamed. There are several sub issues here as well including the student volunteered to take a loan,chose their major and a school.

But setting that aside third party reimbursement in just about anything can cause inflation. And that could include loans, grants, scholarships or government or corporate reimbursement(these schools always seem to know a government or private sector business paid schooling plan better than the student). Is the availability and use of student 'aid' causing tuition inflation.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...nt_aid_accounts_for_rising_college_costs.html

Same issues frequently arise with insurance reimbursed services for instance wether it's health care or something like autobody repair. Without that third party those providing services would have to price their product based on the private individual sector ability to pay.

And just because a person is trained or schooled for free that does not mean there will be jobs waiting for them in the government or private. Theoretically most people working full time have jobs that sort of promise or imply a 30 year career yet school pump out graduates every year. Will the turn over in jobs offset a surplus of graduates.

This sounds good but doesn't guarantee squat.
 
Makes more sense to me to first figure out how to bring the cost of a college education down before deciding to create more taxpayer burden.
 
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QuickSilver said:
Read my post above... lon... You are living in the past. It's simply not possible to pay for college.. by working a minimum wage job... particularly if you are supporting yourself and your family... and don't have the luxury of mooching off mom and dad while doing so.

Most people need to support themselves or their families NOW... not in 2 or 4 years... another case to be made for raising the minimum wage.
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Read my post Quick I am talking about students earning some of the costs, not all, and mom and dad & like my case a grand parent helping to fund the costs. I am not living in the past. My married grand kids all graduated within the past 8 years, and without any debt.
 
fureverywhere said:
I will have student debt until I die. IMHO if somebody can swing higher education being free, it would give a lot more people a lot more opportunities.
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And remember too, that all those people who've finally gotten an opportunity have a better chance of becoming an even better contributor to the well being of our society. Wouldn't you say that would be the effect? How many really bright people are stuck in crap jobs because they just couldn't swing the tuition? And then the not so bright people don't have enough crap jobs that they can fit even though they would like to work. My husband read that there's a huge number of high tech jobs in North America that simply aren't getting filled because they can't find the skilled labour for them.

QuickSilver said:
What gets me is that some folks expect people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps... work hard... maybe 2 or 3 jobs.. (that don't exist) or are minimum wage...YET want them to be more responsible for their kids and better parents... (hard to do if you are away working 2 or 3 jobs)... Then complain when they may be taxed more so people can get an education so they can find better paying jobs.. So the bottom line

Pull your self up.. I did it so can you.... yet refuse to see that higher education is simply out of reach to most.. Working one's way through college while supporting kids on a minimum wage job is a fantasy of the Wealthy..

Way back in the day it WAS possible to work ones way through college by waitressing or bussing tables.. College tuition has skyrocketed and that is no longer possible
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Exactly right QS. And 'back in the day' it was possible for a man to go out to work while his wife stayed home and raised their two or three kids, put them through college, and he bought and paid for the house, etc, and could save up for their golden years. How many families can operate like that now?
 
One thing that definitely needs work is a stronger high school education/diploma. High school students are coming out too specialized in major & mindset. They've been sold a bill of goods like one can do what ever they want in life, even worse they are entitled to do it. A high school diploma should represent a more diversified and fundamentally sound individual. Students need to be taught the value of a diversified resume vocationally & academically. That means bringing back things like shop, home economics along with math, reading & science for everyone regardless of how good they are at it. A high school graduate should have enough fundamentals that all they have to do is decide what to do and go to school for it. Now it's not uncommon for students to waste a year & money in remedial course work in something they should've left high school with.
 
>My husband read that there's a huge number of high tech jobs in North America that simply aren't getting filled because they can't find the skilled labour for them.<

Debby, the number of unfilled skilled labor jobs is in the millions. These are jobs that pay extremely well and offer great benefits. Why is there such little interest?

I would suggest it's because of the myth that only a college education will get you a decent job.
 
FazeFour said:
>My husband read that there's a huge number of high tech jobs in North America that simply aren't getting filled because they can't find the skilled labour for them.<

Debby, the number of unfilled skilled labor jobs is in the millions. These are jobs that pay extremely well and offer great benefits. Why is there such little interest?

I would suggest it's because of the myth that only a college education will get you a decent job.
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Part of the problem with that issue is the lack of exposure in high school and else where. The mindset or mentality now is that everyone should be a specialists frequently ignoring a common skill set and competency level in multiple disciplines. There are too many out there with an extremely limited comfort zone simply because they were not exposed to enough things let alone trained in them.
 
Bursuries and scholarships are marvelous, providing you are sufficiently brilliant to qualify. In BC competition is fierce. Not everyone is intelligent enough to make it to McGill, or to qualify for scholarships for UBC etc. does that mean that someone with only an

88-89% average should not have the opportunity for an advanced university education without crippling debt? . Seems to me maintaining B+ average should be enough for most universities, to be worthy of an affordable education. My son gave up his


dream of grad school in order that his wife achieve her dream of practicing law. No way could they have swung the debt load

otherwise. Yes he is working and paying off his debt at almost five hundred bucks a month. It pisses me off that because of outrageous costs, he had to compromise his dream. He worked the whole time he went to university!
 
When I was a teen universities charged full fees and for the daughters of a government clerk, my dad, this was unaffordable for one year, let alone three. However there were government scholarships that you could apply for and these were distributed on merit. The children of the working and middle classes had to compete with the well off students who could afford private schools. I was lucky enough to win a scholarship with a living allowance and this is how I became a teacher. I signed a bond that required me to work in public schools for five years after graduation. I was obliged to go anywhere in the state that the Department of Education chose to appoint me.

Much later we had a prime minister who did away with university tuition fees. The idea was to develop all talent regardless of financial situation. The number of places in courses was capped according to community need for graduates. The mix of students shifted in favour of the less well off because a lot of bright students from poorer families were able to go to university. The number of women and mature age students also rose. Free university delivered a better qualified work force.

Since then we have settled down to government subsidy of universities and students can pay their fees up front or they can avail themselves of a Higher Education Contribution Scheme (HECS) which works like a student loan but not at market interest rates. Repayment is to the government via the taxation system and is deferred until income reaches something like the average male rate.

There is talk now of adopting a more American scheme that would involve less subsidisation and loans at commercial rates. This will certainly disadvantage children from large and poorer families, women in general and mature age students. This is not the way to become the 'clever country' that our politicians love to talk about.
 
WhatInThe said:
One thing that definitely needs work is a stronger high school education/diploma. Now it's not uncommon for students to waste a year & money in remedial course work in something they should've left high school with.
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For sure. I have read reports that said students going through school 100 years ago, got pretty much the same education as what I got going through High School. Now, after watching our kids and grandkids, it seems that they have to go through the first 2 years of college to get what I got in High School. There have been many discussions about the "Dumbing Down of America", and I believe it. I think it really started with the "Great Society" when it was decided that Equality and Political Correctness were more important than Excellence. That may have looked good on paper, but it has sure failed to prepare many of our young for today's reality and global competition. Everyone today seems to be brainwashed into thinking they need a college degree....meanwhile occupations like Welders which can easily pay $35 an hour, are going begging. If a person looks at the catalog of courses being offered today by most universities, half those courses have little or no relevance with today's jobs market....yet students spend huge sums of money on these courses which barely qualify them to flip burgers.

Our entire education system seems to be geared more towards "babysitting" and profit generation...with preparing the students for the Real World being secondary. It is certainly a contributing factor for why we see so many jobs being lost to overseas competition. Education, alone, cannot compensate for a lack of drive, ambition, and a willingness to work hard. There are good examples of people who have given up on our education system and launched their own careers which led to extreme wealth....Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, to mention just a couple. Sitting in a classroom, while the teacher "teaches the test", is hamstringing more and more of our young. The Primary goal of education should be to make students "Think", and motivate them to reach for higher levels...I see less and less of that as time passes.
 
I am certain daughter in law is able to think. Lol. She has a highly scientific mind, loves law. Graduates this year. My educated son has a highly lateral creative mind. Yes he can think in logical within the box terms also. I can think for myself also, some of

my advanced education was completed while I was a mature student. All of us worked hard, no free ride. I have no debt finally. I am so tired hearing about entitled, lazy etc students. This is a new era. Even with some assistance, the difference in

cost between the education I received in my twenties, and the final bits was absurd. Not everyone is cut out to be a welder, or a trades person, they should have a choice. I am certainly far better suited to my career than any other I can think of. Surely what employers are after in any career, trade, etc. Is excellence.
 
It would be prudent to look at salaries at the universities. For instance the head of AZ State U gets about $800,000 a year. The president of the US doesn't get that much.

A factor Bernie & co don't mention is the money that would be wasted on students who drop out before they graduate.

The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money.
 
Hmmm. I live in a country which to some extent is embracing democratic socialism. Yes we pay higher taxes, gladly, in order to be able to fund healthcare, and various other social programs we deem necessary. It isn't other people's money, it is ours.

No one here is forced out onto the street because of bankruptcy over health costs. Big Pharma prices don't force the poor to eat cat food in order to afford prescriptions, if then. Poor seniors are given a guaranteed income, up to thirteen hundred dollars

a month, I think. Not one hundred percent certain.
 
Manatee said:
It would be prudent to look at salaries at the universities. For instance the head of AZ State U gets about $800,000 a year. The president of the US doesn't get that much.

A factor Bernie & co don't mention is the money that would be wasted on students who drop out before they graduate.

The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money.
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Sounds like the college industry has gotten too big to fail.

http://www.npr.org/2012/06/26/155766786/whats-driving-college-costs-higher

I've been to some big corporate headquarters or 'campuses' shall we say and the college facilities I've been to dwarf Fortune 500 companies in size. And the locals at a big college or one with a popular program will defend & fight tooth and nail for the status quo to stay. This is one reason many living near or working for a college like Penn State didn't seem to eager for change(I didn't righteous indignation or the outrage one would've expected) after the Sandusky child abuse scandal. That school campus is their golden goose. Perhaps they didn't condone it but I'm sure there were signs including a missing DA among other things-I digress. This is why failing and criminal athletes are allowed to play and be in those schools as well. Keep the money train chugging along.

Too Big Fail-The American College Industry
 

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