E=mc2....the laws of physics....consciousness

hangover

hangover

Member
So here it is eleven pm, and this stuff is keeping me awake. I'll start with a quote from Einstein..."Once you realize that everything that exists, come from nothing, that is something, that is nothing....It's easy to wear stripes with plaid."

Is E=mc2 relative if there is no consciousness? Is there time without consciousness? How can there be laws of physics without consciousness? How can there be any laws of anything without a god to make those laws? How can there be any order without laws?

The opposite of order is chaos...correct? Nothing from nothing is nothing.

Without the laws of physics, there wouldn't be any order in anyone's body. No veins, no organs, no life.

Well, I've already admitted to being a nut job...this pretty much proves it. But it's impossible to sleep, when this stuff is always in my head.

Any contributions will be appreciated.
 

hangover said:
So here it is eleven pm, and this stuff is keeping me awake. I'll start with a quote from Einstein..."Once you realize that everything that exists, come from nothing, that is something, that is nothing....It's easy to wear stripes with plaid."

Is E=mc2 relative if there is no consciousness? Is there time without consciousness? How can there be laws of physics without consciousness? How can there be any laws of anything without a god to make those laws? How can there be any order without laws?

The opposite of order is chaos...correct? Nothing from nothing is nothing.

Without the laws of physics, there wouldn't be any order in anyone's body. No veins, no organs, no life.

Well, I've already admitted to being a nut job...this pretty much proves it. But it's impossible to sleep, when this stuff is always in my head.

Any contributions will be appreciated.
Click to expand...

I'll Bite! Remember Billy Joel's line, "I just may be the looonatic you're lookin' for"...?

Can't sleep thinking about what? The abstract?

E=mc2 defines the amount of energy present if a mass m is converted entirely to energy. It's a f*&k of a lot! The connections to physiology you mention, elude me.

Chaotic motion of say millions of like particles might be definitive of Atrial Fibrillation (AFIB, as shown in the damned T-V commercials). The waving of millions of stalks of grain in a field due to the wind is thought to be semi-chaotic.

Picture a billion muscle cells packed closely together in a bunch, having a few hollow spaces within, each cell contracting in particular time with it's neighbor to produce sufficient force to "squeeze" blood cells away from them, through a valve, into the next chamber, or out to the lungs or into the Aorta, and you get (maybe) the scene showing how the heart performs it's miracle.

Muscle cells can only impart force in one direction, as they contract. The ones that drag your wrist towards your chest must be acted upon by others, which drag the wrist back away, perhaps to allow scratching some offending spot elsewhere. Muscle cell motion is thought to be a type of controlled chaos.

Now it's time to rest. imp
 
Its the tree in the forest thing. Of course it makes a noise, whether you hear it or not. We all perceive reality differently and certainly differently than other life forms, but there is a reality, consciously perceived or not.
As far as something from nothing. That may not be the case. There may have always been something. Both concepts are almost impossible to imagine for us poor humans as everything we experience has a beginning and an end.
As for an intentional planned order for the universe, I do not see it. I certainly don't picture a God sitting down at a drafting table and saying, "Let me see, If I put the Earth in this exact spot..." I see it as totally random chance. Just a never ending chain reaction of forces acting on other forces. Kind of like a never ending game of billiards. I have been fortunate to ricochet
off of some wonderful people in my life.

Disclaimer: I have absolutely no credentials to back up the above. Just my personal observations and conclusions after bouncing off the bumpers for 83 years.:shrug:
 

I never took physics but as far as I know nobody has figured out where everything came from. I pretty much see myself as this speck of sand ..if that...in the scheme of things. Remember that song..Dust In The Wind? I think what you're asking is the BIG question..where did everything come from and why. Oh my...must be a billion answers.

I respect the science that brings us some of the answers. When I walk down a beach on a starry night I'm just glad I'm here. I'm part of something big and always have been. Everyone is. I believe it's all woven into something that matters. I do understand questioning the whys of everything...but I'd need a few more lifetimes and at least a physics course for me to try and sort out the tiny details.

It was fun sharing my thoughts. Thanks for listening.:2cents:
 
My husband has a degree in physics. He says he sometimes dreams about formulas etc. He tries to explain it to me but I tell him my brain is full! :D
 
Karen99 said:
I never took physics but as far as I know nobody has figured out where everything came from. I pretty much see myself as this speck of sand ..if that...in the scheme of things. Remember that song..Dust In The Wind? I think what you're asking is the BIG question..where did everything come from and why. Oh my...must be a billion answers.

I respect the science that brings us some of the answers. When I walk down a beach on a starry night I'm just glad I'm here. I'm part of something big and always have been. Everyone is. I believe it's all woven into something that matters. I do understand questioning the whys of everything...but I'd need a few more lifetimes and at least a physics course for me to try and sort out the tiny details.

It was fun sharing my thoughts. Thanks for listening.:2cents:
Click to expand...

I think you've got it figured out pretty good there, Karen. Thoughts worth sharing. Don't have to be a physicist. Just pay attention to what you observe.:jumelles:
 
The opposite of order is not chaos, it's randomness. Is randomness chaotic? No. It's just less predictable. What is normal to the spider is chaos to the fly.

Consciousness is not necessary for the passage of time to occur, only one's awareness that time is passing. I agree with Underock1. It's the tree in the forest question again and of course the tree makes a sound because the laws of physics are not subject to the presence or absence of man. It would be pompous to think so.

Good thread though.
 
chic said:
The opposite of order is not chaos, it's randomness. Is randomness chaotic? No. It's just less predictable. What is normal to the spider is chaos to the fly.

Consciousness is not necessary for the passage of time to occur, only one's awareness that time is passing. I agree with Underock1. It's the tree in the forest question again and of course the tree makes a sound because the laws of physics are not subject to the presence or absence of man. It would be pompous to think so.

Good thread though.
Click to expand...

No shortage of Pompous human beings though. :iamking:
 
Underock1 said:
I think you've got it figured out pretty good there, Karen. Thoughts worth sharing. Don't have to be a physicist. Just pay attention to what you observe.:jumelles:
Click to expand...

Thanks, Underock..I agree about the paying attention. I just know time goes by way too fast now. :). I remember when I was a kid waiting for Christmas it seemed to nearly stand still...yet it's always the same 24 hours.
 
We perceive reality, but it probably doesn't need us to exist. We will never know, will we? If we are not conscious then time - and pretty much our lives - cease to exist.

For us.

I spent many years studying metaphysics and I'm still as confused as ever. I like to take Underock's line - that we're all just freak accidents and should just enjoy the ride. This simplifies my life without needing to fall back on myths and legends, or alternately becoming a slave to science.

Einstein was a punk. :playful:
 
SifuPhil said:
We perceive reality, but it probably doesn't need us to exist. We will never know, will we? If we are not conscious then time - and pretty much our lives - cease to exist.

For us.

I spent many years studying metaphysics and I'm still as confused as ever. I like to take Underock's line - that we're all just freak accidents and should just enjoy the ride. This simplifies my life without needing to fall back on myths and legends, or alternately becoming a slave to science.

Einstein was a punk. :playful:
Click to expand...

"This simplifies my life.." Oh doesn't it though?! It's so freeing once you accept it. No more worrying about getting into Heaven or going to Hell. What is God's plan? Why are we here? What is the meaning of life? Why do bad things happen to good people?
Because that's just the way it is. Everything in life makes sense as soon as you accept that there's no sense to it. :devil:

( You didn't have to make me a "freak" accident, though.)
 
Omar figured that out a long time ago and settled for some wine and the enjoyment of a woman...
 
Karen99 said:
I'm with you on that one but wow..if you ever want to learn you have an expert tutor right there. :wink1:
Click to expand...

Yes, and in the beginning of his career he was a physics teacher, and by all accounts, a really good one. He was shocked to learn that physics was not a required subject in US high schools.
 
Wow! Looks like there is a lot of interest in the stuff that fills my head. I really don't know which to respond to. i finally got to sleep about 12:30 and woke up at 3:30 thinking about whether it's more dangerous to be stupid or smart. I'm uneducated so that puts me in the stupid category. But Trump for instance, thinks he has all the answers.

And science is supposed to be smart...they're the ones that came up with E=mc2...and that lead to building the nuclear bomb....smart? When they made the bomb, they really didn't know what would happen when they set it off...they thought it might ignite all the atoms on the planet...but what the hell, let's see what happens.

Nixon was going to nuke the moon...that's smart, huh.

Now they've built the "Super collider" that smashes particles together at nearly the speed of light, to try to find God. They said they found him...or her...or them....they call it the god particle.

But my question still hasn't been answered, concerning "laws" and "time". Without consciousness, there can't be either. Unless there were other conscious life forms before humans, laws and time could not have existed, because they only matter to a conscious mind.

E=mc2 is physics because it's matter...and time...which equals energy. Now science says the universe is mostly "dark matter" and "dark energy". It seems the more you know, the more you don't. Remember when the earth was flat, and the center of the universe?

Keep those opinions coming, they're great.
 
hangover said:
Wow! Looks like there is a lot of interest in the stuff that fills my head. I really don't know which to respond to. i finally got to sleep about 12:30 and woke up at 3:30 thinking about whether it's more dangerous to be stupid or smart. I'm uneducated so that puts me in the stupid category. But Trump for instance, thinks he has all the answers.

And science is supposed to be smart...they're the ones that came up with E=mc2...and that lead to building the nuclear bomb....smart? When they made the bomb, they really didn't know what would happen when they set it off...they thought it might ignite all the atoms on the planet...but what the hell, let's see what happens.

Nixon was going to nuke the moon...that's smart, huh.

Now they've built the "Super collider" that smashes particles together at nearly the speed of light, to try to find God. They said they found him...or her...or them....they call it the god particle.

But my question still hasn't been answered, concerning "laws" and "time". Without consciousness, there can't be either. Unless there were other conscious life forms before humans, laws and time could not have existed, because they only matter to a conscious mind.

E=mc2 is physics because it's matter...and time...which equals energy. Now science says the universe is mostly "dark matter" and "dark energy". It seems the more you know, the more you don't. Remember when the earth was flat, and the center of the universe?

Keep those opinions coming, they're great.
Click to expand...

You may not be formally educated. Neither am I. That does not mean you are stupid. I only see one point that seems to bother you, and I go back to that, and repeat my previous thought. Because we poor mortal beings are not conscious of something, does not mean it doesn't exist. Laws and time exist, whether or not humans do or not. Look at some of the Hubble telescope photos. Then the famous photo and "Pale Blue Dot" commentary of Sagan's and realize how incredibly insignificant
human beings are to the universe. We couldn't even be classified as cosmic bacteria. That being said; I am quite content to be
returned to that grand, unknowable universe as star stuff.
 
Look at the dinosaurs - they were subject to physical laws and time long before human consciousness existed.

"And science is supposed to be smart ..." ... it is. It's the application of it, by man, that is so often stupid.
 
SifuPhil said:
Look at the dinosaurs - they were subject to physical laws and time long before human consciousness existed.

"And science is supposed to be smart ..." ... it is. It's the application of it, by man, that is so often stupid.
Click to expand...

Not "physical laws"..."laws of physics"...I don't think the dinosaurs had any consciousness of them...or time.
 
Karen99 said:
I never took physics but as far as I know nobody has figured out where everything came from. I pretty much see myself as this speck of sand ..if that...in the scheme of things. Remember that song..Dust In The Wind? I think what you're asking is the BIG question..where did everything come from and why. Oh my...must be a billion answers.

I respect the science that brings us some of the answers. When I walk down a beach on a starry night I'm just glad I'm here. I'm part of something big and always have been. Everyone is. I believe it's all woven into something that matters. I do understand questioning the whys of everything...but I'd need a few more lifetimes and at least a physics course for me to try and sort out the tiny details.

It was fun sharing my thoughts. Thanks for listening.:2cents:
Click to expand...

Such good, sensible thought put forth, is always well-worth listening to! Thank you for writing it! imp
 

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