Elderly Rights - Do They Have Any?

Nathan said:
Yes, but you have to put your wishes in writing before you become incapacitated.
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How does putting your wishes in writing provide the lifestyle you want? I wish someone would give me a million dollars but writing it down won’t make it happen.
 

TabbyAnn said:
How does putting your wishes in writing provide the lifestyle you want? I wish someone would give me a million dollars but writing it down won’t make it happen.
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From the OP it sounded like you were talking about " elective death and providing comfortable procedures that are completely under the control of the person wanting to die" issues, rather than "lifestyle". ?
 
Nathan said:
From the OP it sounded like you were talking about " elective death and providing comfortable procedures that are completely under the control of the person wanting to die" issues, rather than "lifestyle". ?
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It was about elective death wishes and lifestyle wishes for the last years of life. How does writing down these wishes make them happen?
 

I have a "do not resuscitate" directive drawn at the time writing my Will. I would not like to have this decision/burden on my sons and daughter.
 
BC Flash said:
I have a "do not resuscitate" directive drawn at the time writing my Will. I would not like to have this decision/burden on my sons and daughter.
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The legality of the "Do Not Resusitate" (DNR) forms vary from state to state. If your sons and daughter aren’t responsible, who exactly will enforce your DNR? It is likely neither your attorney nor your primary care physician will be present during an emergency needing resusitation. It will likely be a strange doctor in an emergency room. And the DNR doesn’t prevent you from being placed in a nursing home where you might not need resusitation but can linger for years in discomfort. I’m trying to figure out how all this works in the real world.
 
TabbyAnn said:
The legality of the "Do Not Resusitate" (DNR) forms vary from state to state. If your sons and daughter aren’t responsible, who exactly will enforce your DNR? It is likely neither your attorney nor your primary care physician will be present during an emergency needing resusitation. It will likely be a strange doctor in an emergency room. And the DNR doesn’t prevent you from being placed in a nursing home where you might not need resusitation but can linger for years in discomfort. I’m trying to figure out how all this works in the real world.
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Frequent advice to elderly or terminally ill people is to have a signed, witnessed copy of their DNRs in an marked envelope on the kitchen refrigerator. Apparently EMT and police are trained to check there. (It would creep me out to do that. Who needs a mortality reminder with every waltz through the kitchen?)

Nursing home stints are often not forever. My experience with friends/family in NHs is that they've been there for short surgical recoveries, PT/OT rehab stints after a (non catastrophic) stroke, recuperation and therapy after breaking a hip, and similar.

On reflection, I can immediately bring to mind a couple of dozen short NH stays (among loved ones, friends, and friends' loved ones) for reasons cited above. However, I've never personally known anyone permanently committed to a NH. Not saying those folks don't exist, just that it doesn't seem to be a common situation.

Perhaps my circle of friends and family have been inordinately fortunate.
 
StarSong said:
Frequent advice to elderly or terminally ill people is to have a signed, witnessed copy of their DNRs in an marked envelope on the kitchen refrigerator.
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If you have a life threatening emergency somewhere where neither your doctor, lawyer nor refrigerator are present, I wonder how the DNR gets reinforced?

I too don’t know the details of how one might get confined to a nursing home permanently against their will. Or, once confined, how they get out. Maybe those with first hand experience can explain this?
 
TabbyAnn said:
If you have a life threatening emergency somewhere where neither your doctor, lawyer nor refrigerator are present, I wonder how the DNR gets reinforced?

I too don’t know the details of how one might get confined to a nursing home permanently against their will. Or, once confined, how they get out. Maybe those with first hand experience can explain this?
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At that point, our best hope is a wise ER doc who won't go to too many extraordinary measures before the person's next of kin is identified, notified, can explain our wishes, and provide documentation (if necessary).

Since so many elderly people do indeed have DNRs, when someone in their 80s+ shows up in catastrophic condition at the hospital, I think the default position of ER docs is that a DNR is much more likely than not. That was exactly the case with my mother.
 
TabbyAnn said:
If you have a life threatening emergency somewhere where neither your doctor, lawyer nor refrigerator are present, I wonder how the DNR gets reinforced?

I too don’t know the details of how one might get confined to a nursing home permanently against their will. Or, once confined, how they get out. Maybe those with first hand experience can explain this?
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A agree about the DNR, most likely no one is going to stop and check for one in an emergency, the first instinct is to save your life. If you're in the hospital or care facility then it becomes an important document.

I believe many end up confined to a nursing home against their will for a couple of reasons. You live alone and doctors determine you can't care for yourself, so commit you for your own good. Your family isn't capable of handling your care so you get parked in a home.

I bet there are many in nursing homes that beg every day to go home, yet aren't allowed.
 
Re: Tabbyann's post #30 I was informed that the "Catholic hospitals" will not honour the "do not resusticate" directive.

I am in Canada and have talked to my daughter, sons and my G.P. (who has a copy of my directive) about my wishes. There are Catholic hospitals (ie women's hospital) here but unlikely I will be admitted for "end of life" issues.
 
TabbyAnn said:
The legality of the "Do Not Resusitate" (DNR) forms vary from state to state. If your sons and daughter aren’t responsible, who exactly will enforce your DNR? It is likely neither your attorney nor your primary care physician will be present during an emergency needing resusitation. It will likely be a strange doctor in an emergency room. And the DNR doesn’t prevent you from being placed in a nursing home where you might not need resusitation but can linger for years in discomfort. I’m trying to figure out how all this works in the real world.
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People often will keep their wishes in an envelope on the side of the refrigerator. EMS know this and will look for if someone is alone during an emergency. If you have wishes in writing they should be on file with your doctor and local hospital(s). I took my father's durable power of attorney for health care to the local medical records section of the hospital. They scanned it and gave me the original back.

Even if you don't have anyone who can verbally express your wishes, you can do it by drawing it up. I don't know how to do it all without an attorney, my stepfather had it done with an attorney. It was not insanely expensive but he has the funds and I get not everyone does. An internet search may be helpful.

Some people in nursing homes are indeed full codes. It's a case by case basis. And you are right. People can live for years after a major life altering health event. Those are the times a good strong heart are not a good thing to have.
 
As a person nears death, the NH will ship you off to the hospital since they don't want to have a reported death and related paperwork to deal with.
 
Happy Heart said:
As a person nears death, the NH will ship you off to the hospital since they don't want to have a reported death and related paperwork to deal with.
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Most nursing homes and assisted living facilities are required to send patients to hospitals when there's a crisis. If the hospital sees that there's a DNR and the person is near death, the patient can be returned to the earlier facility with hospice care set up, or can go to a hospice facility for end-of-life care.
 
Happy Heart said:
As a person nears death, the NH will ship you off to the hospital since they don't want to have a reported death and related paperwork to deal with.
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This is actually not true. It's the acute care hospital that does not want deaths. Those are looked at as statistics much more than a nursing home.

A death in a nursing home can vary. Full code, CPR initiated and 911 called. Other residents are DNR limited or DNR comfort. DNR limited and the patient or their family will decide if a change in condition will send them to the hospital or if they will be treated at the nursing home. DNR comfort will probably not be transferred to acute but a patient or their family can change their mind and request a transfer.

All changes in condition are documented and the patient put on alert charting unless they are hospice or absolute comfort only with an expected decline.

A death in a nursing home (for DNR) requires little paperwork. The MD is notified, the first listed responsible party is notified, the mortuary is called when the family states it's OK and a basic nurses note is written. A simple paper is filled out for the mortuary to sign.

Edit to add: if the person is a full code, hopefully they are transferred by ambulance before CPR needs to be initiated.
 
StarSong said:
Most nursing homes and assisted living facilities are required to send patients to hospitals when there's a crisis. If the hospital sees that there's a DNR and the person is near death, the patient can be returned to the earlier facility with hospice care set up, or can go to a hospice facility for end-of-life care.
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StarSong, see my above note. This is probably true for assisted living. But it is not true for nursing homes.

I will add there are things like a broken bone or suspected bowel obstruction where someone no matter their status would be sent to acute. This would require treatment.
 
TabbyAnn said:
If you have a life threatening emergency somewhere where neither your doctor, lawyer nor refrigerator are present, I wonder how the DNR gets reinforced?

I too don’t know the details of how one might get confined to a nursing home permanently against their will. Or, once confined, how they get out. Maybe those with first hand experience can explain this?
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I don't know if there is something you can carry in your purse or wallet. Yes sometimes you hear of car accidents where the person had a "medical emergency." Can happen. I can't and won't worry about that all the time though.

You can get out if you can take care of yourself or can with some assist. If you cannot take care of yourself physically or don't have the resources to help you or you have dementia where you can't take care of yourself then a person can be stuck in a nursing home.
 
BC Flash said:
Re: Tabbyann's post #30 I was informed that the "Catholic hospitals" will not honour the "do not resusticate" directive.
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I wondered how the "Right To Lifers" would handle a DNR. My primary care physician has a sign in his office saying he doesn't participate in DNR directives. Which is probably irrelevant since he likely won't be there at a life threatening emergency anyway.
 
TabbyAnn said:
I wondered how the "Right To Lifers" would handle a DNR. My primary care physician has a sign in his office saying he doesn't participate in DNR directives. Which is probably irrelevant since he likely won't be there at a life threatening emergency anyway.
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That's a twist I've never considered, someone who would refuse to honor a DNR.

I imagine the laws vary by state and country but does a DNR have any legal standing? If it does and a doctor knowingly ignored the directive could that face legal consequences? Or possibly medical malpractice?
 
TabbyAnn said:
A few years ago a senior friend visited her elderly aunt in the aunt’s home when the aunt suddenly had a stroke that paralyzed and stiffened half her body. The elderly aunt said she didn’t want to go to the hospital. She wanted to die and be with her deceased husband. But the senior sent her to the hospital anyway where the doctors recommended permanent nursing home care. The family put her in a nursing home and sold her house. Now she complains about callous treatment from CNAs (certified nurse assistants) who don’t get her to the restroom in time and treat her roughly when trying to dress her, and other things. They recently broke her arm. Claimed she fell against he bed. Some other countries are more humane about elective death and provide comfortable procedures that are completely under the control of the person wanting to die. Do the elderly here have any control over what they choose for their own bodies?
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This is disgraceful, and disgusting , but yes this does go on , over here, it’s happening to the elderly, and the young vulnerable……..and others who havnt voices……..

my husband had the same stroke as your friends aunt, that is why I take full control over his care ,
I'm very aware that this happens , as I’ve worked in many care homes, before deciding to become a private carer, on a One to One basis………

my husband has the DNA, in place , after having a hernia operation a few years back, with concerns he could have another stroke, which would put him in a vegetation state…….so we decided on it …..

I just hope I live long enough to keep my promise to him, that he would never go into a home or have carers looking after ………
 
charry said:
This is disgraceful, and disgusting , but yes this does go on , over here, it’s happening to the elderly, and the young vulnerable……..and others who havnt voices……..

my husband had the same stroke as your friends aunt, that is why I take full control over his care ,
I'm very aware that this happens , as I’ve worked in many care homes, before deciding to become a private carer, on a One to One basis………

my husband has the DNA, in place , after having a hernia operation a few years back, with concerns he could have another stroke, which would put him in a vegetation state…….so we decided on it …..

I just hope I live long enough to keep my promise to him, that he would never go into a home or have carers looking after ………
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It’s nice to hear from someone with first hand experience. Many seniors just assume things and share their assumptions without thinking about the real world steps involved.
 
It’s awful that a DNR would be ignored. People have a right to choose their destiny. Both my parents had them when older and sick.
 
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