Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart has passed

Sunny said:
The "burden of proof" rests with the person making a statement that something exists. Anyone questioning what that person claims does NOT have to prove that it is not true.

You claim that you are the Queen of Transylvania. Do I have to prove that you are not?

I could say that anything is true. Santa Claus exists. We see pictures of him every Christmas. The tooth fairy exists. Ask any kid who left a tooth for her, and found money the next day. Do we have to believe their fairy tales, just because they told them, or someone wrote them down in a book thousands of years ago?

The only facts that I believe are those that are proven or provable. And I mean scientifically provable, not just something that someone once said.
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Science is not without errors. What once science "proved" to be true, further scientific research may discover it not to be true.
 

Religious and spiritual beliefs are often deeply subjective, personal, and vary greatly from person to person. Such beliefs often rely upon interpretation and individual perspectives, rather than empirical proof.

The "burden of proof" concept is crucial in many contexts, but it does not necessarily apply to individual beliefs. A person is free to hold whatever beliefs they like without needing to prove them to anyone else.
 
MACKTEXAS said:
Religious and spiritual beliefs are often deeply subjective, personal, and vary greatly from person to person. Such beliefs often rely upon interpretation and individual perspectives, rather than empirical proof.

The "burden of proof" concept is crucial in many contexts, but it does not necessarily apply to individual beliefs. A person is free to hold whatever beliefs they like without needing to prove them to anyone else.
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Very nice, @MACKTEXAS!!
I like that line of reasoning.

I think that it's a rather specious argument to demand [empirical(proof)] of beliefs...
While Descartes said Cogito, ergo sum (I think, therefore I am), he couldn't provide empirical evidence
that he was actually thinking anything at all... so he said that his doubt was also evidence of him "being".

Even if I'm being deceived by an evil demon or trapped in a dream, the fact that I'm contemplating it means there's a 'me' doing the contemplating."

But not "proof" that he was...
 

My maternal grandmother was a staunch follower of Rex Humbard. She bought a piece of the cross and a thread form Jesus' robe from him. :rolleyes:
She also went on a tour of the Holy Land he sponsored in the early 1970s. She though she would get to sit on the bus next to him, but he traveled in his own vehicle and just met the tour group at various stops.

Rex Humbard - Wikipedia
 
That's why I don't make big donations to any churches or pastors. I usually make a $10 donation per service when I go to the Sunday service. I figure my $10 donation is enough to pay for my share of electricity and a minimum wage for the pastor.
 
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Our priest used to encourage giving more if we wanted a higher place in heaven. A higher place in heaven meant more work is what I thought. I was just a kid, but I remember that being hammered in.
 
Jim & Tammy ... complete grifters from the get-go! How could people actually be fooled into sending them $$?
All of them were like that from what I saw. Peter Popoff was another gem! Send him $27.95 for a small pouch of 'Sprint Water' to anoint yourself with and all your debts would be forgive; lol.
Popoff.jpg
 
OldOld said:
That's why I don't make big donations to any churches or pastors. I usually make a $10 donation per service when I go to the Sunday service. I figure my $10 donation is enough to pay for my share of electricity and a minimum wage for the pastor.
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I feel the same. When we attend, which sadly isn't often, it's a small country Congregational Church.

I went here with my family back when I was a kid. NEVER do I recall, back then or today, being gouged for more money. We all make our donations and boost it up a bit at Christmas to cover the trimmings and gifts for the local "unfortunates".
 
My local pastor (Episcopalian) sent out weekly e-mails during the Covid shut down, always saying the same thing, that during this difficult time they needed more money than just our regular pledges. Never once did he send us any words of encouragement or a simple prayer or Bible passage, just the money thing. I finally wrote back saying, I felt like I was being dunned by a collection agency and withdrew my membership.

I'm still looking for a new church.
 
I've heard that "more money during Covid" plea from other sources too. I always wondered why a support organization needed more money when things were shut down and social contact was at a minimum. Maybe it can be explained. I never thought about the question that much. Even my favorite charity to which I want to contribute, never stops asking for money, although they never played the Covid card, which would have seemed absurdly manipulative,
 
Della said:
My local pastor (Episcopalian) sent out weekly e-mails during the Covid shut down, always saying the same thing, that during this difficult time they needed more money than just our regular pledges. Never once did he send us any words of encouragement or a simple prayer or Bible passage, just the money thing. I finally wrote back saying, I felt like I was being dunned by a collection agency and withdrew my membership.

I'm still looking for a new church.
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Why do you feel obligated to pay for a membership with a church? I usually just walk in to a Sunday service, sit in the back and don't talk to anybody. I make a small donation (usually $10) every time for the service. I am not interested in any fellowship (i.e. gossiping).
 
Della said:
My local pastor (Episcopalian) sent out weekly e-mails during the Covid shut down, always saying the same thing, that during this difficult time they needed more money than just our regular pledges. Never once did he send us any words of encouragement or a simple prayer or Bible passage, just the money thing. I finally wrote back saying, I felt like I was being dunned by a collection agency and withdrew my membership.

I'm still looking for a new church.
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I always remember the "sermon" the priest said during a Mass, "The first time around is the regular collection, the second time around is for the Bishop's Fund, the next time around is for foreign missions, and the last time around is for the Easter altar flowers."
 
Elsie said:
Science is not without errors. What once science "proved" to be true, further scientific research may discover it not to be true.
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That fact is often brought up by the "believers," but it is faulty reasoning. Of course science makes errors. No real scientist would say that anything is true beyond question, just because he (or somebody else) said it. No statements are holy and required to be believed. That's the beauty of science.

A scientist deals with a hypothesis, which is a suggestion that something appears to be true, based on the following evidence: A, B, C.
If there is no evidence, his statement is nonsense, and is generally considered pure fiction. And scientific "truths" change all the time, as our science improves and new evidence comes to light.

Here's a silly little example, but it proves the point: At the beginning of the Covid pandemic, many people wore gloves all the time when outside of their home, as they were afraid they could pick up the virus by touching something. I did that myself when going grocery shopping. Then, evidence proven by science came out, that the Covid virus doesn't spread that way, and the gloves are probably unnecessary. That is based on statistical evidence: Do people wearing gloves get Covid less often than people without gloves? No? Then the glove thing is merely a theory, or a guess. It is not a fact, and was not dictated by a deity. (If thou wearest gloves, thou shalt not get Covid.)

The great "blessing" of science is the fact that errors appear all the time, and any reputable scientist announces that the idea is not proven, and not believed to be true any more. Scientific belief requires proof, not some blind adherence called faith. And what is believed to be true, based on the evidence, gets closer to the truth all the time.

Many of the stories in the Bible are great stories, but that is all they are.
 
Sunny said:
scientific "truths" change all the time, as our science improves and new evidence comes to light.
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Religious "truths" change too, but only after thousands of years, and even that doesn't always happen. Science is much more dynamic, and more importantly, is an entirely different process of understanding.
 

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