Former manson family member denied parole. Again

Having worked in the parole system to a degree, allows
me to say that in my experience, those would-be criminals
and miscreants DO NOT think of the consequences of their
actions if they are caught breaking the law....because these
types think they WILL NEVER be caught....my 2cents.....
 

Silent Rose said:
That could be the case unless the person acted on their own which in this case they obviously did not. That is the reason why Charles Manson spent his entire life behind bars which he should have.

I am not saying this lady shouldn't spend the rest of her days behind bars. I am just not sure at her age now if she is a threat to society. I really don't know if anyone will ever know that for sure unless they do release her at some point and it just is too risky to try that. So she will probably spend the remainder of her years behind bars.
Click to expand...
During their trial, their defense attorney also said the girls did not act on their own; they were brainwashed by Manson. (of course that's his job)
The reason that didn't work was the D.A. said (in his summation) "The fact that someone convinced them to commit evil is irrelevant. If these girls didn't want to murder anyone, all they had to do was not do it." Besides, someone would have to already have evil in their heart to stab people 100's of times.
A bank robber can say, "I did it for my family" or, "My wife talked me into it," or "A friend convinced me it was a good idea."

When I was 23, a close friend told me about a guy who owed him $400.00 & hasn't paid him back for 2 years. He also said, "Every time I ask him to start paying me back, he tells me to F--k off. My friend begged me to go with him to the guy's house & bring one of my guns to intimidate him into paying back the money. Had I been stupid enough to do it & been charged with a crime, the defense of "My friend talked me into it" wouldn't wash.
 
WhatInThe said:
Maybe they should release her and make her lecture young girls about the pitfalls hanging with criminals just for drugs or attention. She should tell them how she spent lost 50 years of her life in prison-the peak years, no kids, no activities for the young etc. She missed the opportunity to make her own choices. It should be a quasi scared straight typed lecture.

She needs to be running the could've would've should've through her head the remainder of her life along with hopefully steering a few troubled girls in the right direction. Might not be physical incarceration but she has to mentally realize or pay for what she has done for life or death as sentenced.
Click to expand...
She can write letters on that topic from her cell & copies can be given to young girls.
 

Last edited:
win231 said:
During their trial, their defense attorney also said the girls did not act on their own; they were brainwashed by Manson. (of course that's his job)
The reason that didn't work was the D.A. said (in his summation) "The fact that someone convinced them to commit evil is irrelevant. If these girls didn't want to murder anyone, all they had to do was not do it." Besides, someone would have to already have evil in their heart to stab people 100's of times.
A bank robber can say, "I did it for my family" or, "My wife talked me into it," or "A friend convinced me it was a good idea."

When I was 23, a close friend told me about a guy who owed him $400.00 & hasn't paid him back for 2 years. He also said, "Every time I ask him to start paying me back, he tells me to F--k off. My friend begged me to go with him to the guy's house & bring one of my guns to intimidate him into paying back the money. Had I been stupid enough to do it & been charged with a crime, the defense of "My friend talked me into it" wouldn't wash.
Click to expand...
I get what you are saying. These people were severely messed up and they were also under the influence of many drugs as well. Not that is an excuse to stab someone 100 times because it is not. These people would have killed themselves for Charlie Manson if he would have said that was the correct thing to do. That was how much of an influence he had over them and that is how much he had control of them. So to say all they had to do was not do it is easy for you to say, but I doubt it was not very easy for them to just walk away.

For example, let's discuss the Waco Texas incident with David Koresh. Those followers of him were certainly brainwashed and even in those last hours many of them decided to stay in that compound(men, women, children) to know they were going to die. They believed they were going to die for something David Koresh installed into their heads and it is pretty much the same thing that Charles Manson did with these people that he told them that what they were doing was all part of the master plan and what they were doing is right. Me sitting here typing this would think right away that he was crazy and walk away, but to these people they thought he was it and followed his every word. Were they crazy themselves? Yes they were. Were they mixed up into drugs? They were. Were they all looking for some sort of acceptance? Most likely they were. I am just saying there was a lot of things that contributed to the killings and one of the main ones was Manson being in control.
 
I have seen several documentaries and or interviews on these cult like scenarios.
Many members did want out before things went down hill .... or even before.
Most are not as dedicated but the leaders find leverage on them such as holding family or children etc....

It is sad so many lost souls need to subject themselves to this type of coercion ....
to feel they needed to murder someone to belong.....
 
hawkdon said:
Having worked in the parole system to a degree, allows
me to say that in my experience, those would-be criminals
and miscreants DO NOT think of the consequences of their
actions if they are caught breaking the law....because these
types think they WILL NEVER be caught....my 2cents.....
Click to expand...
That's my experience as well. It's also my rebuttal to those that think the death penalty is a deterrent. Nobody ever thinks beforehand "oh-my-gosh, I shouldn't kill, I could get the death penalty". It just doesn't work that way.
 
Silent Rose said:
I get what you are saying. These people were severely messed up and they were also under the influence of many drugs as well. Not that is an excuse to stab someone 100 times because it is not. These people would have killed themselves for Charlie Manson if he would have said that was the correct thing to do. That was how much of an influence he had over them and that is how much he had control of them. So to say all they had to do was not do it is easy for you to say, but I doubt it was not very easy for them to just walk away.

For example, let's discuss the Waco Texas incident with David Koresh. Those followers of him were certainly brainwashed and even in those last hours many of them decided to stay in that compound(men, women, children) to know they were going to die. They believed they were going to die for something David Koresh installed into their heads and it is pretty much the same thing that Charles Manson did with these people that he told them that what they were doing was all part of the master plan and what they were doing is right. Me sitting here typing this would think right away that he was crazy and walk away, but to these people they thought he was it and followed his every word. Were they crazy themselves? Yes they were. Were they mixed up into drugs? They were. Were they all looking for some sort of acceptance? Most likely they were. I am just saying there was a lot of things that contributed to the killings and one of the main ones was Manson being in control.
Click to expand...
I read something interesting about the David Koresh situation. When the charred bodies were collected, many had bullet holes in their skulls. Many did try to escape & were shot by Koresh or his people.
 
Nathan said:
That's my experience as well. It's also my rebuttal to those that think the death penalty is a deterrent. Nobody ever thinks beforehand "oh-my-gosh, I shouldn't kill, I could get the death penalty". It just doesn't work that way.
Click to expand...
I've never considered the death penalty a deterrent. I agree that a murderer probably doesn't think about it beforehand.
The reason I'm in favor of it is because no one who has been executed has ever harmed anyone again. The same can't be said for paroled criminals.
 
I am totally against her ever having parole. She was waay beyond the "average" murderer. She was a MONSTER, and she should pay the full price . It is one thing to murder someone in the "heat of the moment", and another thing entirely to plan a murder and stab them hundreds of times.
If the Supreme Court had not gotten involved, she would have/should have been executed way back in the 70's
 
hawkdon said:
Having worked in the parole system to a degree, allows
me to say that in my experience, those would-be criminals
and miscreants DO NOT think of the consequences of their
actions if they are caught breaking the law....because these
types think they WILL NEVER be caught....my 2cents.....
Click to expand...
I think that's what we're currently seeing with a lot of the inner city crimes like car jacking. It's that attitude that the law doesn't matter ie consequences.

Van Houten was young but most know by their early teens what is right or wrong even if by osmosis Even if high she really can't blame the drugs because most drugs don't manufacture thought but lower impulse control. I don't know what Manson gave his minions but he was an excellent manipulator and/or predator when it came to spotting the most maluable. Don't have to know the entire rule book but how can one not know murder is wrong and against the law.

What happened to Manson's top henchman 'Tex' Watson I think it was?
 
win231 said:
Maybe some of the older ones did. But the children had entrance wounds in the back of their heads.
Click to expand...
I imagine the children did not shoot themselves or were even given the choice to do so. Not sure if they were really trying to escape or not or just lined up and shot in the back of the head. I suppose we shall never know about that. I do know with some of those crazy cults there were mass suicides involved when the so-called leaders had his/her end days prophecy.
 
WhatInThe said:
Van Houten was young but most know by their early teens what is right or wrong even if by osmosis Even if high she really can't blame the drugs because most drugs don't manufacture thought but lower impulse control. I don't know what Manson gave his minions but he was an excellent manipulator and/or predator when it came to spotting the most maluable. Don't have to know the entire rule book but how can one not know murder is wrong and against the law.

What happened to Manson's top henchman 'Tex' Watson I think it was?
Click to expand...
You obviously have no/or very limited, experience with LSD and the Manson Family used it Every Day. I read several books about this. It seems Manson did not trip with his people. In that way, he became the guide of the group and "directed" their trips. Imagine months upon end being like that. If I recall correctly Leslie was the youngest at 17. When folks shout about grooming young girls for sex, she was groomed to carry out Manson's whims, whatever road that took. I think she deserves the same consideration as a trafficked girl. If she has family willing to mind her, IMO she should be paroled. However, that is according to her present state of mind.

Tex Watson is still in prison and was 24 at time of murders.
 
Last edited:
WhatInThe said:
I think that's what we're currently seeing with a lot of the inner city crimes like car jacking. It's that attitude that the law doesn't matter ie consequences.

Van Houten was young but most know by their early teens what is right or wrong even if by osmosis Even if high she really can't blame the drugs because most drugs don't manufacture thought but lower impulse control. I don't know what Manson gave his minions but he was an excellent manipulator and/or predator when it came to spotting the most maluable. Don't have to know the entire rule book but how can one not know murder is wrong and against the law.

What happened to Manson's top henchman 'Tex' Watson I think it was?
Click to expand...
i looked up a where are they now sort of article Tex is in prison
 
All I can say is that Manson and the Manson family has always scared the living daylights out of me.

I have actually counseled ex-offenders. But, you know, they were all convicted of, you know, regular crimes.

I don't think brainwashing is a common experience at all. But, in this case, I think that was going on.


My concern would be that the prison system is not really equipped to deal with the extreme psychological profile of someone exposed to brainwashing.

I think the only people who could properly assess her state, would be people in the intelligence community, not in the prison system.


If a very very extensive review of her case was done by real experts in cults and brainwashing...and they cleared her...then yes, I think parole would be appropriate. However, that would be a long slow process of re-integrating into society. Maybe some time in a psychiatric hospital, then a halfway house, and something like that, slowly over time.

I have literally interacted with ex-offenders who took human life. And they never scared me the way that the Manson family does.
 
Just a note here about the brutality of Manson and the Manson family. When they killed Sharon Tate, who was pregnant, they first stabbed her in the abdomen, so that she could watch her baby being killed. They stabbed her with a fork. That made it less of a powerful strike, so that she would suffer more and die slower.

And that was just one incident of hundreds of truly psychotic acts that the Manson family did. So, to my mind, they are just not normal criminals. And their psychology is not very well understood...is my best guess.

I have been a fan of the writings of Bo Lozoff. He taught meditation and spirituality to prisoners, since the early 70s. He was highly respected. I do know that David Berkowitz, the Son of Sam, contacted him and they corresponded a bit. I don't remember everything. I remember that Berkowitz had converted to religion. I think Mr. Lozoff was using kind language, but reading between the lines, I got the impression that even after decades in jail, he was still quite a disturbed person.

One other thing I will say. When I counseled ex-offenders and had some rapport with them and got in there and was able to help them...those guys were very grateful. And many would immediately become very protective of me. One thing that THEY made clear to me, were that there definitely were people incarcerated who THEY considered extremely dangerous and utterly beyond help.
 
Alligatorob said:
I believe that once someone has committed murder they have given up the right to live amongst us.
Click to expand...

I would agree, were that applied equality to everyone, especially to politicians, the military and police - but it isn't.

Silent Rose said:
Or did they shoot themselves?
Click to expand...

Or did the people who had them surrounded and were shooting at them shoot them? 🤔
As usual, we only got to hear one side of the story, from those who weren't surrounded and murdered.
.
 
Silent Rose said:
I get what you are saying. These people were severely messed up and they were also under the influence of many drugs as well. Not that is an excuse to stab someone 100 times because it is not. These people would have killed themselves for Charlie Manson if he would have said that was the correct thing to do. That was how much of an influence he had over them and that is how much he had control of them. So to say all they had to do was not do it is easy for you to say, but I doubt it was not very easy for them to just walk away.

For example, let's discuss the Waco Texas incident with David Koresh. Those followers of him were certainly brainwashed and even in those last hours many of them decided to stay in that compound(men, women, children) to know they were going to die. They believed they were going to die for something David Koresh installed into their heads and it is pretty much the same thing that Charles Manson did with these people that he told them that what they were doing was all part of the master plan and what they were doing is right. Me sitting here typing this would think right away that he was crazy and walk away, but to these people they thought he was it and followed his every word. Were they crazy themselves? Yes they were. Were they mixed up into drugs? They were. Were they all looking for some sort of acceptance? Most likely they were. I am just saying there was a lot of things that contributed to the killings and one of the main ones was Manson being in control.
Click to expand...

Koresh was nuts. The "cult expert" that the FBI used was HORRIBLY unqualified. He was great at promoting himself as this cult expert...but literally had no training or degree in psychology, theology, sociology, anything...

He was, in fact, a former professional jewel thief who had quit crime...and then "made it his mission" to "go after" cults. Which, I guess is fine...but the guy had zero background or qualifications and frankly, had quite a number of mental health issues himself. But, you know how it goes..people "fake it, until they can make it." And sometimes, they never develop the skills needed to do the job.

His group went after Scientology. Now, I think Scientology is a cult. But those folks had money and they hired professional investigators and dug up his real background for the court case. I think that Scientology case, basically sued the anti-cult group into bankruptcy.

And, it also came out, that they had been kidnapping gay people and trying to "convert" them into being straight.

And they did other things. They were just basically goons and if your kid was not behaving the way you wanted, you could hire these guys to kidnap your kid and threaten the kid into doing what you wanted them to do.

My understanding is that some of the gay kids they kidnapped were psychologically damaged...and for life.
 
John cycling said:
I would agree, were that applied equality to everyone, especially to politicians, the military and police - but it isn't.



Or did the people who had them surrounded and were shooting at them shoot them? 🤔
As usual, we only got to hear one side of the story, from those who weren't surrounded and murdered.
.
Click to expand...
I think we will never know the full story and you have to remember as well that many of these people were down in underground tunnels and bunkers underground that they had built all for this supposed apocalyptic ending event that they were all told and preparing for by David Koresh.
 
Pepper said:
You obviously have no/or very limited, experience with LSD and the Manson Family used it Every Day. I read several books about this. It seems Manson did not trip with his people. In that way, he became the guide of the group and "directed" their trips. Imagine months upon end being like that. If I recall correctly Leslie was the youngest at 17. When folks shout about grooming young girls for sex, she was groomed to carry out Manson's whims, whatever road that took. I think she deserves the same consideration as a trafficked girl. If she has family willing to mind her, IMO she should be paroled. However, that is according to her present state of mind.

Tex Watson is still in prison and was 24 at time of murders.
Click to expand...
Never did lsd. A hallucinogenic would be one of the categories of drugs that could do that-help put thoughts in someone's head. But it would also have to overcome a basic tenant or instinct not to kill. I guess that's where the repetition and manipulation comes in. Doing pot, coke, heroin wouldn't have the same effect-everyone seems to abuse the drug abuse excuse. And if Manson kept his flock high 24/7 they'd could've lost a sense or reality. Since he recruited young most teenagers would still be in a rebel phase so rich or older people could be more easily made to seem 'evil' or the enemy.

Sidenote there is 'a' conspiracy theory saying Manson was recruited in a federal prison to test stuff like LSD and/or other stuff for mind control. Some say that is why he was so good at manipulation like he was trained/schooled in it. The other part of theory is that LA prosecutors found out then dismissed and ignored the theory-I digress
 
Last edited:
Silent Rose said:
I think we will never know the full story and you have to remember as well that many of these people were down in underground tunnels and bunkers underground that they had built all for this supposed apocalyptic ending event that they were all told and preparing for by David Koresh.
Click to expand...
even though the FBI's "cult expert" was terrible, I don't think anyone truly knows if an actually knowledgeable expert would have helped. Koresh was nuts and extremely dangerous and no matter what the FBI or other law enforcement did, it just might have ended up the same way.

My understanding is that the FBI did, in fact, entirely change its tactics in dealing with similar situations after that. I think they started to just try to "wait them out," even if it took days or weeks. And in the meantime, slowly negotiate for some people to be released...children, elderly, ill, etc.

With the more extreme cases, I don't think they should just use regular hostage negotiators, but really get top flight psychiatric professionals in there to consult.
 
Pepper said:
I highly recommend reading

"Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Manson Murders: Bugliosi ..​

Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Manson Murders--Vincent Bugliosi (1934―2015), was the prosecutor of Charles Manson..........."

It's a great read, very well written and super interesting, IMO.
Click to expand...
Yikes, I met a man named Joe here, I confided in him about abusive partner
He said he understood about people for he was the babysitter for the girls
The one involved with the Manson murders.
A while goes by and it's spring again
I go to the book store to see what's new.
When I see him passing me by outside my building. I say to him that a new book is out named Emma ------about the girls he said he baby sat for.
He was off to his many watering holes here in Maine.
Since then I have not heard or seen of him.
I think he was scared.......I think I may venture out to see since I have isolated
Myself way to long.
 
Lots of interest and opinions Marie 5656

She appears to have made a successful transition and may be a model citizen; however, her crime was so outside the norm that
she can never be trusted.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top