George Floyd was a victim

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win231 said:
You forgot to mention that George Floyd was handcuffed while he was murdered. That makes his size, strength & athletic ability meaningless.
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I was not trying to excuse the officer at all by the comment I made, as although not convicted of murder yet, the evidence appears beyond any doubt he was beyond reckless with his suspects life, and I expect the officer to suffer the consequences of this fact, (how long a sentence he might receive, if convicted I'm not sure).
It does not make any sense a man would continue to kneel on anyone's neck minutes after he became unconscious, and I agree, for most, if not all the period before hand, (just extraordinary behaviour, making you think, as they knew one another, there was some I'll feeling there - it will come out in the trial no doubt).
All I'm doing by mentioning George Floyd appeared to be a strong man, was to understand whether anyone might fear him because of this, more than they might a smaller or weaker man, but absolutely it does not provide the officer with a defence, as he should be trained to deal with threats appropriately, especially when police were present in force, and the man already handcuffed.
 

grahamg said:
I was not trying to excuse the officer at all by the comment I made, as although not convicted of murder yet, the evidence appears beyond any doubt he was beyond reckless with his suspects life, and I expect the officer to suffer the consequences of this fact, (how long a sentence he might receive, if convicted I'm not sure).
It does not make any sense a man would continue to kneel on anyone's neck minutes after he became unconscious, and I agree, for most, if not all the period before hand, (just extraordinary behaviour, making you think, as they knew one another, there was some I'll feeling there - it will come out in the trial no doubt).
All I'm doing by mentioning George Floyd appeared to be a strong man, was to understand whether anyone might fear him because of this, more than they might a smaller or weaker man, but absolutely it does not provide the officer with a defence, as he should be trained to deal with threats appropriately, especially when police were present in force, and the man already handcuffed.
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There is no reason to fear anyone because they are big or strong. Muscles don't work without the brain telling them what to do.
 
What I struggle with most in all this is the utter callousness exhibited by Chauvin. The complete lack of empathy and any aspect whatever of humanity.

We can argue all day whether or not he should or shouldn't have done what he did. You all know my opinion on that. But what I can't even begin to comprehend is the mindset of someone who would continue to "subdue" his prisoner so far past the point where the prisoner became incapable of any response whatever, up to and including unconsciousness and then death.

What kind of mind thinks like that? What kind of person would have a thought process that concluded it was imperative to continue to kneel on Mr. Floyd's neck after he became unresponsive (which was some time before he actually died) because........????

Because why? He certainly was no longer a threat (not that he ever actually was) But for argument's sake, sure he was a big guy, maybe he seemed threatening, perhaps he said some things that caused Chauvin some concern. OK. Whatever. But once he's handcuffed with his hands behind his back, on the ground, on his stomach, several other officers right there, what threat does he pose then?

So he could struggle maybe, try and flip over, maybe attempt to get up, so you might want to continue to restrain him. But at some point, a few minutes before he actually died, at SOME point it HAD to become obvious to Chauvin that Mr. Floyd was all outta fight. He was down. He was done. Struggling to breathe, body language indicating that he was compliant (other than perhaps straining to get another breath) no more resistance.

So, let's just continue to kneel on his neck some more, shall we? We'll continue to kneel on his neck till he stops talking. Till his eyes close. Till his body goes limp. Till he stops breathing. And then till he no longer has a pulse. And then even after that. At any one of those points (and well before obviously) Chauvin could have adjudicated that Mr. Floyd was no longer a threat.

What kind of person does that?
 
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Sunny said:
Probably a sociopath, Ronni.
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It will surely come out at the trial whether there are sociopathic tendencies, but you could speculate endlessly, (everything from a deliberate killing to thereby send out a message to others, all the way to an aberration, one nobody can understand).
 
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MsFox said:
Go on YouTube and watch the videos from the Park City officer's body cam where they moved Floyd around and were talking to him in what appears a calm manner. This wasn't a regular arrest for passing counterfeit money. Very strange behavior and a bit too friendly, even Floyd's voice was calm saying he couldn't breathe. I don't think he had any idea they were going to kill him or he wouldn't have been so cooperative.
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In separate conversations two of my friends and I cited the look on Chauvin's face as he was kneeling on Mr. Floyd's neck. It was chilling because it was so deliberate. My BFF of 42 years who happens to be white was extremely upset as she talked about the case; almost in tears. She was astonished when I brought up that look, thinking maybe she was the only one who noticed it.

Chauvin and Floyd worked security together at a club, so they knew each other for sure. Someone sent me a video on FB featuring someone who looked like Chauvin wearing a Make America White Again cap. I didn't share it because I did not know if it was legit. Anyway, it came to my mind that if Chauvin is that racist, perhaps he didn't like that Mr. Floyd's fiancee is White. It was also mentioned that Floyd had to keep Chauvin in check sometimes because of his tendency to be unnecessarily threatening to clientele.

@hollydolly I still wonder if Mr. Floyd actually knew the bill was fake. I wouldn't think twice about whether a $10 or $20 bill is real or fake. I'm more suspicious of (and don't like getting) $100 bills.
 
OneEyedDiva said:
@hollydolly I still wonder if Mr. Floyd actually knew the bill was fake. I wouldn't think twice about whether a $10 or $20 bill is real or fake. I'm more suspicious of (and don't like getting) $100 bills.
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This is only on a side note, but I don't think most people could tell the difference between real and counterfeit even if they looked. Perhaps that's why some stores in this area have little machines to determine whether large bills are fake or real.
 
What good did George Floyd do? According to the article, he'd have your back, never wanted anything in return. He was referred to as a "gentle giant" who never hurt anybody. When he played basketball for South Florida state college, he stood out not only as a good athlete but someone who was fun to be around. He owned up to his mistakes. He had moved back to Minneapolis to improve his condition in life, to be around his children and be a better father. He was also in talks about joining a mentoring program.
https://www.rockdalenewtoncitizen.c...cle_480f276c-d50e-57b2-a1ee-611035830d89.html
 
Jun 4, 2020

#63

Click to expand...Slight correction. Two other officers were standing one was on his torso. That weight on his torso would IMO help to cause inability to breathe properly . Between loss of blood circulation to the brain & pressure on his torso the ALLEGED criminal was as described a Victim
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Going way back OneEyedDiva your emoji showed as angry to my post. I think you might have misinterpreted my post.

George Floyd is the victim. He was the alleged criminal. We'll never know that he actually passed a counterfeit $20.00 bill.

As I've pointed out previously sitting in a car with two friends, one in the front seat with the passenger door open. That seems normal to me for someone that unknowingly passed a counterfeit bill. The alleged in my mind is because it was not proven Floyd was the one the store owner claims passed the bill. A claim isn't fact until proven.
 
MarciKS said:
https://thecourierdaily.com/george-floyd-criminal-past-record-arrest/20177/

I'm not saying he deserved to die. I'm just saying when you're dealing with a career criminal that's violent the restraint may be necessary to keep the cop safe as well as the criminal. Clearly in this case it did not happen that way. But in normal situations, the restraint is protective. As I said, had the tables been turned we'd be praising that officer for dying in the line of duty even if we didn't know he'd planned on killing George that day. That's the point I'm trying to make.

There are no guarantees in life but, if a person stacks the odds against themselves then this is usually the end result whether it was right or wrong.

"Live by the sword, die by the sword"
~Aeschylus Agamemnon 1558
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I think it's pretty much a guarantee that if you cut off a person's blood/oxygen to his brain for 8+ minutes, the person is going to die. That cop had training and he knew that.

He didn't do it to restrain Mr. Floyd, who was already restrained and face down on the ground with his hands handcuffed behind him.
 
grahamg said:
It will surely come out at the trial whether there are sociopathic tendencies, but you could speculate endlessly, (everything from a deliberate killing to thereby send out a message to others, all the way to an aberration, one nobody can understand).
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I don't agree, Graham. A deliberate killing to thereby send out a message to others? What message could possibly warrant the cold-blooded murder of another human being who is clearly no threat? Even if he was guilty (oh, horrors!) of passing a phony $20 bill, did that crime deserve the death penalty, let alone an immediate execution without benefit of a trial or anything else? Do you know of any civilized nation that would condone this kind of "punishment," even if a crime had been committed? And remember, there was no evidence of any crime or threat at all from this man. He was dragged from his car and brutally murdered.

Your other suggestion, an "aberration," is even more puzzling. Aberration from what? The word means "A departure from what is normal, or expected." Can we really refer to this cold-blooded killing as a mere departure from police procedure?

BTW, I know we can speculate endlessly, but my reply that a sociopath is the kind of person who would do this was an answer to Ronni's question in the previous note.
 
Sunny said:
I don't agree, Graham. A deliberate killing to thereby send out a message to others? What message could possibly warrant the cold-blooded murder of another human being who is clearly no threat? Even if he was guilty (oh, horrors!) of passing a phony $20 bill, did that crime deserve the death penalty, let alone an immediate execution without benefit of a trial or anything else? Do you know of any civilized nation that would condone this kind of "punishment," even if a crime had been committed? And remember, there was no evidence of any crime or threat at all from this man. He was dragged from his car and brutally murdered.

Your other suggestion, an "aberration," is even more puzzling. Aberration from what? The word means "A departure from what is normal, or expected." Can we really refer to this cold-blooded killing as a mere departure from police procedure?

BTW, I know we can speculate endlessly, but my reply that a sociopath is the kind of person who would do this was an answer to Ronni's question in the previous note.
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I'm just "speculating endlessly" myself, and if I were pushed I'd give a verdict of deliberate killing/murder, because of the link between the two men raising the possibility of a vendetta, (obviously saying this is my opinion, whilst knowing I've seen no evidence acceptable in court there was a vendetta). I'm not making excuses therefore, in my endless speculation, but I do think its necessary for everyone to allow justice to take its course, that all. :unsure: .
 
grahamg said:
Are you a big strong man with a brain saying this, or a smaller man trained in martial arts?
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I don't know what that has to do with it, but....no. 5'11" & 168 is hardly "big & strong." No fight training. :) At 67, I'm not stupid enough to fight with anyone. If I have to defend myself, there are better & safer ways.
 
win231 said:
I don't know what that has to do with it, but....no. 5'11" & 168 is hardly "big & strong." No fight training. :) At 67, I'm not stupid enough to fight with anyone. If I have to defend myself, there are better & safer ways.
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Just my attempt at humour, and at your height/weight I'd guess there are men capable of putting up a hell of a fight. I've never been in a physical fight in my life, so I'm no expert obviously. Funnily enough the only lad I almost ended up fighting in my school days remained a friend ever since, (alcoholism may destroy that friendship along with his life unfortunately now).
 
I think the vendetta thing is a bit out there, but I don't think it matters. Chauvin stayed on Mr. Floyd's neck till long after he quit moving or crying out or breathing. That's murder,any way you slice it.

I think Chauvin has a problem with black men in general, and in particular, those who challenge his authority in any way. I hope Chauvin enjoys his time in prison; he earned every minute of it.
 
Butterfly said:
I think the vendetta thing is a bit out there, but I don't think it matters. Chauvin stayed on Mr. Floyd's neck till long after he quit moving or crying out or breathing. That's murder,any way you slice it.

I think Chauvin has a problem with black men in general, and in particular, those who challenge his authority in any way. I hope Chauvin enjoys his time in prison; he earned every minute of it.
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Yes, you can hope that, but he's yet to have a fair trial, yet to be convicted of anything, and yet to have a judge pronounce sentence. Do you wish to deny him those rights today, before hoping he finds prison enjoyable?
 
grahamg said:
Yes, you can hope that, but he's yet to have a fair trial, yet to be convicted of anything, and yet to have a judge pronounce sentence. Do you wish to deny him those rights today, before hoping he finds prison enjoyable?
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Only if you believe in an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth. George Floyd was denied the fairness of the justice system.
 
Knight said:
I'm happy you chose "suspected crime" since Floyd didn't get his chance in the justice system.
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You are right of course, but if we're to be governed by laws and a justice system, even a flawed system, rather than mob rule, you can't have the officer denied a trial even if his victim didn't get the same.:( .
 
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