Gilroy Garlic Festival shooting leaves 3 dead

Such a shame, rest in peace to all who have died and condolences to their families. My sympathy to all the victims. Hope they find the killer(s) asap.
 
Warrigal said:
I don't call 18 people killed or injured a low casualty rate. You can do a lot of damage with an assault rifle before anyone can take action to stop you.
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I think you get the point. 3 dead is a low death rate. When there are no armed people there, the death rate is usually much higher.
 
I do get the point but two of the dead were children.
Two slaugtered children is two too many to my mind.
I was reminded that there is a check point at the CA border for fruit but not for guns.
The teenaged shooter purchased his weaon legally in Nevada.
Why was one so young allowed access to such a high powered killing machine?
 
Yes, exactly, Warrigal. That is the point. Not whether it "could have been worse" without plainclothes police being there, but why did something like this have
to happen to begin with?
 
Warrigal said:
I do get the point but two of the dead were children.
Two slaugtered children is two too many to my mind.
I was reminded that there is a check point at the CA border for fruit but not for guns.
The teenaged shooter purchased his weaon legally in Nevada.
Why was one so young allowed access to such a high powered killing machine?
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No one would disagree that one person injured would be too many.
There is NO law or restriction that can prevent anyone from getting anything they want. If there were, no one could ever buy illegal drugs.
There will always be evil & mentally-unstable people.
If the gun was purchased legally, he was old enough to purchase it. The Las Vegas shooter was 64. Is that too old? Tim McVeigh was 33.
 
win231 said:
Evil & mentally-unstable people are part of the human species.
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Agreed, but why are there so many of them in US?
Could it be because it is easier to acquire weapons of mass slaughter there?

Let me draw an analogy.

When behind the wheel of a fast sports car some people feel the urge to put the foot down to see just how fast they can make it go. In a similar way, some men, and I do mean the male of the species, when in possession of a rapid fire assault style feel the urge to use it to kill as many people they can, as quickly as they can. Such men are rare statistically speaking but if they are harbouring hatred in their hearts it isn't such a big leap to acting on that impulse. Impulse is probably the wrong word since they usually spend a long time planning their actions. It would appear that this latest atrocity was not only planned well in advance, it was also flagged on social media.

At what point should there have been some sort of intervention? I suggest that after he started shooting is too late.
 
The effort to get into the festival is what is troubling. This took planning. Not just obtaining a gun but he had to think how to get onto the grounds by cutting through fence possibly with help. The more planning and more steps to any plan means there's also more time to think about it and/or call it off. This killer did it like he was on a mission.

Also as to what if no access to a gun. The shooter had taken a picture near a Smokey The Bear sign. What if he started a wild fire. We've seen how they turn in California over the last decade. But that's what if too.
 
this is such bad news we are hearing yet again -- why do these brain dead people just shoot there selves at home …….
 
Warrigal said:
Agreed, but why are there so many of them in US?
Could it be because it is easier to acquire weapons of mass slaughter there?

Let me draw an analogy.

When behind the wheel of a fast sports car some people feel the urge to put the foot down to see just how fast they can make it go. In a similar way, some men, and I do mean the male of the species, when in possession of a rapid fire assault style feel the urge to use it to kill as many people they can, as quickly as they can. Such men are rare statistically speaking but if they are harbouring hatred in their hearts it isn't such a big leap to acting on that impulse. Impulse is probably the wrong word since they usually spend a long time planning their actions. It would appear that this latest atrocity was not only planned well in advance, it was also flagged on social media.

At what point should there have been some sort of intervention? I suggest that after he started shooting is too late.
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I'm all for intervention - if it were possible. "Weapons of mass slaughter in the U.S.? How do mentally-unstable people in other countries commit mass slaughter without firearms?
https://time.com/5629152/japan-arson-animation-studio/https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-dead-130-injured-china-knife-wielding-spree-n41966
And, our own Tim McVeigh killed 184 people in less than one second in Oklahoma - without firing a single shot. Restrict diesel fuel & fertilizer?
 
win231 said:
I'm all for intervention - if it were possible. "Weapons of mass slaughter in the U.S.? How do mentally-unstable people in other countries commit mass slaughter without firearms?
https://time.com/5629152/japan-arson-animation-studio/https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-dead-130-injured-china-knife-wielding-spree-n41966
And, our own Tim McVeigh killed 184 people in less than one second in Oklahoma - without firing a single shot. Restrict diesel fuel & fertilizer?
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Fertiliser is somewhat restricted in OZ. As it is for poisons, anyone buying commercial quantities is required to sign a register at POS. If the supplier has concerns, he/she is required to alert law authorities. Arson and home made bombs will still be possible whether military style weapons are restricted or not but that is no reason not to consider some legislation. Each threat to public safety needs its own solution. Should speed restrictions in a suburban street be abandoned just because you can drive faster on the motorway? Should we not worry about some children being shot to death every so often because there are other ways a child can die, such as drowning?
 
Warrigal said:
Fertiliser is somewhat restricted in OZ. As it is for poisons, anyone buying commercial quantities is required to sign a register at POS. If the supplier has concerns, he/she is required to alert law authorities. Arson and home made bombs will still be possible whether military style weapons are restricted or not but that is no reason not to consider some legislation. Each threat to public safety needs its own solution. Should speed restrictions in a suburban street be abandoned just because you can drive faster on the motorway? Should we not worry about some children being shot to death every so often because there are other ways a child can die, such as drowning?
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No, we should have restrictions. My point is restrictions will never prevent every evil thing people do; it only restricts people who would never do anything evil to begin with.
 
Restrictions can change the culture. When RBT, random breath tests for alcohol consumption, were introduced in NSW the culture was rather boozy with people getting behind the wheel after drinking or the morning after a heavy session when still impaired. Quite quickly we realised that a heavy fine or loss of licence would be the result of not complying with this new regime. Behavioural changes followed soon after and the road toll started to drop. It saved lives;, not every life because it did not prevent all accidents or even all drivers from drinking, but it did make a big difference that continued to grow over time. Not only were lives saved; much pain and suffering was also avoided because another measure was adopted soon after - the compulsory wearing of seat belts. Today we happily buckle up and if having a night out where alcohol is the norm, we either nominate a designated driver or take a taxi home.

Australia, with the exception of rural areas, never had much of a gun culture. For starters, most of our wildlife is protected by law. You cannot hunt, trap or kill them. Kangaroos and feral animals such as pigs, goats, horses and some deer need their populations culled from time to time which is why farmers need guns, traps and poison. City dwellers had little need of much more than a mouse trap.

For a while we had lots of armed holdups where the crims had their sawn off shot guns and the banks and armoured cars tended to put up no resistance. For the most part no-one died. It turns out the crims had protection from within the ranks of the police force. Once that was sorted out the rate of armed holdups dropped away dramatically. The crooked police and the crims were taken off the streets. We still have holdups of small convenience stores after dark but these desperados don't usually own a gun. With security cameras everywhere they tend to have short careers in the hold up business.

I can remember a number of gun rampages last century. The worst and the last was at Port Arthur in 1996 when we had the dubious honour of the highest death toll in the world at that time with 35 dead. We were soon overtaken by the massacre by Anders Breivik of young adults on an Danish island. Port Arthur shocked everyone in Australia and opened the door to uniform gun legislation across all states. Certain categories of weaponry are now not available to civilians and there are conditions that have to be met before a gun licence is issued. From that day onward there has not been a repeat of a massacre of anything remotely like Port Arthur although domestic violence continues to be a problem with a national death toll of 1 - 2 women killed by a partner each week. This is a different problem that requires a different solution.

My point is that to solve a problem you first have to want to. Then it is important to tailor the solution to the realities and to try different approaches until something makes a difference. I refuse to believe that there is nothing we can do about any problem. Even if we just improve things a little, that is worthwhile. This is how an optimist thinks. We look for ways to make things better, not perfect. A pessimist thinks that if perfection cannot be reached then there is no point in trying at all. Obviously I am one of the optimists. I have seen how many things have improved in my own lifetime and history provides other examples of social advances that we now take for granted. At the time though many people would have argued that such radical changes would bring disastrous consequences, but they did not.
 
Alienated people visiting hate group websites where their anger is encouraged and are given ways to focus their hate. It's just a matter of finding the tools after that.
 
After decades of arming people, we harvest the benefits of those weapons. Who would have thought that those weapons would be used to kill people? It is inconceivable that the culture of playing cowboys with real weapons could go wrong. And who could have guessed that slaughtering, at least in the double digits, would make the star shooter the lead story on TV for a news cycle, and enduring fame. It's now an American tradition. So you have it- way too many weapons, plus cowboy imagery; along with alienation and fame. We have to reap what we sow.
 
Evil & mentally-unstable people are part of the human species.
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Unfortunately true, Win.

But would you rather see those evil and mentally unstable people living in a country that readily provides them with any weapons of mass murder
they desire to have, just by going into a gun shop and buying them, no questions asked?

Or a country with very strict limits on who is permitted to buy guns?

Many, probably most of those mass shootings were committed with weapons legally bought by the perpetrator.
 
Sunny said:
Unfortunately true, Win.

But would you rather see those evil and mentally unstable people living in a country that readily provides them with any weapons of mass murder
they desire to have, just by going into a gun shop and buying them, no questions asked?

Or a country with very strict limits on who is permitted to buy guns?

Many, probably most of those mass shootings were committed with weapons legally bought by the perpetrator.
Click to expand...
As a gun owner, I can provide you with some useful information. Not trying to change your mind.
The perpetrator may have legally purchased his gun, but he committed a crime by bringing it into CA from Nevada. It is illegal to bring an illegal weapon from one state where it is legal to own into another state where it is not legal. The rifle he used was legal to own - in Nevada, not CA. That is the fallacy with gun restrictions. Since he planned to commit mass murder, he obviously wouldn't care about committing the lessor crime of transporting an illegal weapon into CA. These mentally-unstable, hate-filled people are also willing to die, so they're not concerned with violating gun laws....or any laws.
Los Angeles also has laws about fireworks; they are illegal. That doesn't stop people from neighboring cities from driving 30 miles & buying fireworks & using them in Los Angeles.

CA has a 10-day wait before a gun is released. During that time, a detailed background check is completed. If the Dept. of Justice finds any felony or violence-related misdemeanor or Domestic Violence charges or a restraining order, the gun is not released.
Those restrictions DO NOT mean no one who shouldn't have a gun can ever get a gun. When things are illegal, black markets & private street sales happen; that's how gang members with felony convictions get all the guns they want. That's how people get cocaine or any other contraband. Burglaries are another way.
Here is another way criminals get guns, & it might shock you. Every police department has an evidence locker where guns, drugs & cash are stored. You may have heard about the "Rampart Scandal." Police officers (who have keys to the evidence lockers) were taking guns & drugs out of the evidence lockers & selling them on the street - at huge profits. Example: A gun that costs $600.00 retail goes for $5,000 - $6,000 on the street to a convicted felon who can't legally purchase a gun. The scandal was only discovered when Internal Affairs got suspicious when they learned of the lifestyle of cops that didn't match their salaries - and also a gun taken from a gang member was found to have come from a police evidence locker - matching serial number. After one officer was arrested, he was offered a plea deal if he implicated MANY other officers.
 

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