God has a plan. An observation and a question.

Gary O' said:
That's it?
That's what you base your lack of faith?

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◄ Job 21 ►
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Berean Study BiblePar ▾
Job: God Will Punish the Wicked
1Then Job answered:
2“Listen carefully to my words;
let this be your consolation to me.
3Bear with me while I speak;
then, after I have spoken, you may go on mocking.
4Is my complaint against a man?
Then why should I not be impatient?
5Look at me and be appalled;
put your hand over your mouth.
6When I remember, terror takes hold,
and my body trembles in horror.
7Why do the wicked live on,
growing old and increasing in power?
8Their descendants are established around them,
and their offspring before their eyes.
9Their homes are safe from fear;
no rod of punishment from God is upon them.
10Their bulls breed without fail;
their cows bear calves and do not miscarry.
11They send forth their little ones like a flock;
their children skip about,
12singing to the tambourine and lyre
and making merry at the sound of the flute.
13They spend their days in prosperity
and go down to Sheol in peace.a
14Yet they say to God: ‘Leave us alone!
For we have no desire to know Your ways.
15Who is the Almighty, that we should serve Him,
and what would we gain if we pray to Him?’
16Still, their prosperity is not in their own hands,
so I stay far from the counsel of the wicked.
17How often is the lamp of the wicked put out?
Does disaster come upon them?
Does God, in His anger, apportion destruction?
18Are they like straw before the wind,
like chaff swept away by a storm?
19It is said that God lays up one’s punishment for his children.
Let God repay the man himself, so he will know it.
20Let his eyes see his own destruction;
let him drink for himself the wrath of the Almighty.
21For what does he care about his household after him,
when the number of his months has run out?
22Can anyone teach knowledge to God,
since He judges those on high?
23One man dies full of vigor,
completely secure and at ease.
24His body is well nourished,b
and his bones are rich with marrow.
25Yet another man dies in the bitterness of his soul,
having never tasted prosperity.
26But together they lie down in the dust,
and worms cover them both.
27Behold, I know your thoughts full well,
the schemes by which you would wrong me.
28For you say, ‘Where now is the nobleman’s house,
and where are the tents in which the wicked dwell?’
29Have you never asked those who travel the roads?
Do you not accept their reports?
30Indeed, the evil man is spared from the day of calamity,
delivered from the day of wrath.
31Who denounces his behavior to his face?
Who repays him for what he has done?
32He is carried to the grave,
and watch is kept over his tomb.
33The clods of the valley are sweet to him;
everyone follows behind him,
and those before him are without number.
34So how can you comfort me with empty words?
For your answers remain full of falsehood.”
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Don't be silly. I can't speak for the one who wrote it but it seemed rather tongue in cheek to me and I doubt it's anyone's basis for disbelief.. Amusingly, though, you go on to give an example that did lead me away. It was in depth study of the Bible (being respectful and not referring to it as my pet nickname for it these days) that led me away from belief and the Book of Job with God's sick and twisted testing of a man he admits to be holy did play a big part in that.
 

Jamala said:
Ah well...I've done a lot of arguing on this forum in the last couple of days.

So you are welcome to retrieve your ball from my court as I've got more important things to think about, like how. when I am only 60 how those older than me can outdance me at line dancing today.

Have fun Ms Blaze... didn't know that was a female name. Btw is it too much to ask for shorter paragraphs?
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65 and my disco days are over. Life isn't fair, is it? (Short enough. Warning I do tend to talk too much.)
 
PeppermintPatty said:
😂😂😂 Ok! Now I know who I’m dealing with 🙄 and refuse to do this debating BS.
You win. 🤣
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Well, how friendly of you. Things can be discussed without being view as formal debate. I don't think my use of debatable herein meant what you thought it did.

For the record, I meant it in this meaning of the word (from Merriam-Webster's online dictionary):

2
a
: open to dispute : QUESTIONABLE
the debatable wisdom of his advice

I share you dislike of formal debate. I just like discussing things with people (hence why I'm here) and find we have the most to learn from those who challenge our preconceived notions.
 
Blaze Duskdreamer said:
Becasue they're murdered before they can be born!!! That is not a good or decent thing. What you say here is actually one of the arguments often used against abortion. Would you advocate killing the disabled post birth if it were not found out until baby was born? Same difference. Why create that unborn human defected to begin with? That makes no sense.
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Preposterous view! Newborn baby does not equate six week old fetus!
 
hollydolly said:
well some of us are even older, and we are still dancing... :love:💃💃

Please don't change your style of writing , it's very easy to read.... (y)
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Thank you. I'm likewise enjoying yours. And I'm totally jealous. I taught my grandson how to disco when he was two, specifically how to shake his booty with Casey and the Sunshine Band. Now that he's 19, he will not admit it, not in front of his anyway.
 
Old Salt said:
Preposterous view! Newborn baby does not equate six week old fetus!
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And a 16 yo does not equate to a six week old newborn. All are growing, developing humans. Fetuses have their own DNA, separate from their mother but I did not mean to derail this with a debate on aboriton. I'm pro-life obviously. You're pro-choice, obviously.
 
@Blaze Duskdreamer wrote: "The Nazis had God is With Us on their belt buckles and they truly beleived it."
Since it's not really part of the discusssion I feel free to comment on this one, from first hand knowledge.
"Gott Mit Uns" is a plea, not a confirmation that God is with them. Dear God, we are going into battle, please be with us, would be a good paraphrase. Same as the first verse of our former National Anthem was misunderstood and misinterpreted! "Deutschland Ueber Alles" does not mean Germany triumphant over everybody, but instead "Germany is dear to me above anything else!" Here endeth the lesson! :)
 
Judycat said:
I go around thinking some of the things mentioned above, except, I know it's just my imagination running wild. I don't think I'd ever bother interacting with my imagination to the degree some appear to be interacting, though you are free to believe whatever you wish as long as it's not hurting anyone.

Just my opinion. Sorry if I offend. Just felt an urge to say this, because I've already gone the spiritual route and found much, but not all of it, to be BS. It's all done because, often, reality sucks so much that we make up our own reality. Lots of us do this and I don't think it's abnormal or weird. It's just how we cope with having a big brain.
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This! Exactly. I write fiction (purely hobby, no way do I want to deal with even the legalities of publishing or put up with the kind of BS JK Rowling has for a story that is obviously utterly pure fantasy and a great series of books it is) and I very consciously create a more workable world even as my characters face all kinds of adversity. I can make it come out how I want. But God can't? Believing in God would be about the same as believing those character who I'm fond of just like I am Dumbledore and Professor McGonagall. Wishing does not make it so.
 
Old Salt said:
@Blaze Duskdreamer wrote: "The Nazis had God is With Us on their belt buckles and they truly beleived it."
Since it's not really part of the discusssion I feel free to comment on this one, from first hand knowledge.
"Gott Mit Uns" is a plea, not a confirmation that God is with them. Dear God, we are going into battle, please be with us, would be a good paraphrase. Same as the first verse of our former National Anthem was misunderstood and misinterpreted! "Deutschland Ueber Alles" does not mean Germany triumphant over everybody, but instead "Germany is dear to me above anything else!" Here endeth the lesson! :)
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Um, yes. I was giving it as an example of their belief in God. Praying for him to be with them is belief. I am confused as to where you think I stated otherwise.
 
Gary O' said:
I see history repeating itself
right here in the US

Lawlessness
Like I've never seen
Seems to go hand in hand with Godlessness

This seen is no longer uncommon;
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Except godlessness is far from the majority in the US. The highest estimate of the godless - and they lump everyone not affliliated with a religious organaization as this, including the spirtual, which I'd disagree with labelling godless - as 30%. That's definitely grown but far from the majority. This is as disengenous as the far-Right antisemites who blame everything on the Jews who are also a tiny minority.

Also, why are you assuming they're either not Christians or weren't raised in Christian families. Odds are at least some of they were/are. Though I grant you they're definitely sinning.
 
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Blaze Duskdreamer said:
Likewise, why scorn disbelief? Frankly, I don't think belief is a choice. Either you find a thing credible or you don't or you're not sure. This may change throughout your life - has for me - but at any point in time, it's either believeable or it's not or you're I don't know what to think. All three should be respected unless they are being used to harm others.
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Blaze, I wouldn’t argue with you. As an agnostic I recognize that anything may be possible. For me there are no concrete answers. I don’t scorn belief or disbelief. For myself I just don’t know, but I would never argue with others who believe they do know.
 
Teacher Terry said:
I have read before that souls pick their lives, parents, etc but then think no one would choose to be Jewish in a concentration camp during the holocaust, to be murdered, etc.
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I defintely would not have chosen my parents. My daughter would not have chosen her father. He was a truly bad decision on my part. Worst mistake of my life.
 
Old Salt said:
There is a huge difference in meaning, BD. God (be) with us, and God is with us. One is a plea, the other an arrogant assertion! Yours was the latter.
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I am not a linguist and do not speak or even read and write German so I am not going to argue the finer points of this with you though, yes, of course, I see the shade of difference there and I apologize for not having an exact translation into the English. I merely pointed out that either way it indicates belief. That the Nazis were Christian and based in Christianity certainly does not make all Christians despicable like the Nazis. The majority of Christians would rightly consider them evil. I think that is obvious and goes without saying. I'd say they're evil even as an atheist for lack of a better word to experess how utterly vilely bad they were. I just call for honesty. They were Christian and it's a pet peeve of mine with Christians deny this. If you wonder whether or not Hitler actually believed, all you have to do is read Mein Kampf to clear that up. He did and he believed ardently and passionately. He believed many things. Doesn't make him right. He definitely wasn't right by any stretch of the imagination. His twisted beliefs hardly condemn all Christians. In our Civil War in the States, the Bible was used to argue both for and against slavery. Different Christians interpret the Bible differently.

I'll also add that perhaps not all Nazis did believe even though Hitler did. That would be like assuming all Americans believe because In God We Trust is on our money.
 
Blaze Duskdreamer said:
I am not a linguist and do not speak or even read and write German so I am not going to argue the finer points of this with you though, yes, of course, I see the shade of difference there and I apologize for not having an exact translation into the English. I merely pointed out that either way it indicates belief. That the Nazis were Christian and based in Christianity certainly does not make all Christians despicable like the Nazis. The majority of Christians would rightly consider them evil. I think that is obvious and goes without saying. I'd say they're evil even as an atheist for lack of a better word to experess how utterly vilely bad they were. I just call for honesty. They were Christian and it's a pet peeve of mine with Christians deny this. If you wonder whether or not Hitler actually believed, all you have to do is read Mein Kampf to clear that up. He did and he believed ardently and passionately. He believed many things. Doesn't make him right. He definitely wasn't right by any stretch of the imagination. His twisted beliefs hardly condemn all Christians. In our Civil War in the States, the Bible was used to argue both for and against slavery. Different Christians interpret the Bible differently.

I'll also add that perhaps not all Nazis did believe even though Hitler did. That would be like assuming all Americans believe because In God We Trust is on our money.
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I can't argue with what you wrote, just a simple observation: Anyone who had been baptized in Germany was considered to be a Christian! You had the agnostic, you had the "I couldn't care less, or ho-hum Christians," even Atheists (like my father) were counted as Catholic Christians because they had been baptized as children! In the American South, Evangelical Christians would argue with that! Just an observation that isn't contributing to anything in the slightest! :)
 
Knight said:
1. How do you separate God's plan from the death of many in the mass shootings that have taken place.
2. Does God's plan begin at birth?
3. If it does can you explain why some are born mentally of physically unable to care for themselves? Poverty or extreme wealth can you explain that plan?
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Ive answered these questions for you before but I see you are still troubled.
Hopefully I can be more helpful this time. I struggle with being clear so I'll do my best.
My answers below are not suggesting you believe what I post. I choose to believe. I respect your own right to choose.

@Knight ,My faith based and Bible based answers to your 3 questions:

1. It was never God's plan for any of us to live on earth forever...that is saved for eternal life after our physical death.
Causes of death vary widely, but you specifically mentioned mass shootings. God the Father doesn't want His children to suffer but He purposefully created man to have the ability to choose between good and evil...otherwise we would be robots. God didn't want robots. So evil dwells among us and the shooters chose evil (we all make wrong choices in varying degrees). The victims met their death early and horrifically and their families suffered. God said he would make this right...that doesn't mean necessarily in this life...but rather in our afterlife which lasts for eternity and is what counts most. Any human being who hurts others or hurts our planet makes God angry. You don't have to worry...God will set this straight. And btw, did you see the helpers? They will be rewarded. There's a vast network so involved we can't comprehend it...of God's plan in motion. God is watching.

2. My Bible based answer is this...God says "He knew us before we were in the womb". Yes His perfect plan was and is in place for us. Whether we listen and follow His plan is up to us...again, "we're created with choices". If we choose to follow our own plan, it may get messy, or it may be what you want...but it won't be what you need and what is best for you.

3. I can't pinpoint which of the myriad of reasons there could be for a child being born handicapped or born into poverty. But my faith and the Bible tells me God will make this right when they reach eternity. Also, there are many who don't consider their handicap to be a handicap. Sometimes they even consider it a blessing. So many examples out there of famous people with handicaps. And as I mentioned above...watch for the helpers. God is watching and will make it right.
 
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chic said:
God has a plan. I hear this a lot especially from desperate people or those who are suffering. Some tell me this when I am struggling and it doesn't comfort me a bit. I wish it did. I usually go silent when someone who is hurting badly says this, more to themselves than to me, and just let them talk.
We all have challenging times in our lives at some point and feel stretched to the limit. Maybe we need real help or a definite plan that we are privy to not just patronizing words that are easily dismissed. I've seen a lot of loved ones die, many well before their time, a couple by suicide and I wonder, what was God's plan for them because it didn't work out too well. :cry:
A plan implies sharing. In war, Generals make plans and share them with subordinates. How else can a battle be won? Similar strategies are employed in sports where teams have a game plan with specific plays to achieve certain results and victory.
What good is a plan when it is kept hidden from those it directly concerns?

How do you feel about the title "God has a plan"? And do you think His plan should be shared with us so we could cope better with life's slings and arrows? :unsure:
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@chic ... I was hit by lightening when I was 19yrs old and had a "strange dream". I met my higher power. He did not tell me his name, so I only call Him, my higher power. It was quite a personal experience that affected me profoundly. Most of what actually transpired during my strange dream, my human mind did not understand nor fully comprehend. After all these years, I still haven't fully wrapped my head around it. But He left me with what apparently was something He wanted me to clearly understand. We have choices and He listens to us. He gave me a choice to go forward or go back. It's all about choices. Whether it be a choice to take ones own life, a lifestyle choice that leads to death well before ones time or anything and everything that we do and choose. Those born with defects are the result of choices, both human and genetic and regardless of our awareness, knowledge or lack thereof. Humans are not perfect, nor are their progeny.

I would never tell someone "God has a plan" or "It's God's will" although I might even think that to be the truth at times. You see, my higher power is always with me but He is much MUCH greater than I am, or could be. I would not presume to understand His "plan" or "will".

When I've faced challenging times and felt stretched to the limit, I've not hesitated to call on my higher power. He listens. And sometimes I just explain to Him that I will do the best I can and have faith that He will help me through. So far so good.

chic said:
OK. What is His purpose? I believe. I've read the bible cover to cover many times, but I don't see solutions or plans there. I feel abandoned, so shed some light if you can.
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I've not attended a religious service but MAYBE once or twice my entire adult life. I'm not a religious person but do strongly believe in a higher power and have come to have admiration and respect for religious people who embrace spirituality. They are salt of the earth people. When asked, they might give some examples to shed light on God's plan or will. These are not my words and quite honestly pretty much not the way I've lived. Will also admit I've made some awful terrible choices at times :oops: ...
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We can understand God’s will through His Word. God’s Word is perfect, and we can discover God’s plan for our lives through our study of it. Second Timothy 3:16-17 says, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Second, we can better understand God’s plan for our lives by closely following Him. Romans 12:1-2 promises, “I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God – this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is – his good, pleasing and perfect will.” When we dedicate our lives to God and turn away from the principles of this world, we prepare our hearts to hear from God (also see 1 Peter 4:2).

First Thessalonians 4:3-7 confirms the necessity of being a “living sacrifice” and gives more detail about God’s plan: “It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.”

Third, we can discover God’s plan through prayer. Colossians 4:12 notes that a believer named Epaphras was “always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured.” The Colossian believers needed to know and do the will of God, and so Epaphras prayed for them. We can grow in our understanding of God’s will through prayer. We can also pray for God to reveal His plan to others.

Fourth, God sometimes reveals or confirms His plans for us through other means, including personal circumstances, relationships, or even dreams. However, these areas are often more subjective, and we must carefully evaluate such signs by what God has clearly said in Scripture.

We can rest assured of God’s promise: “Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you” (James 4:8). As we pray, study Scripture, and seek to live holily before the Lord, He will reveal His plan for us in His perfect time and in a way we can understand.
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