God, or not? A Christian Discussion

Boon54

Boon54

Member
OK. So, I'm a Christian. I first became one around the turn of the century, when I was in my late 40s. I'm now 71.

I, too, struggle with the many concerns expressed elsewhere in this company as well as on the internet. I think my understanding of the Bible and of Christianity is "correct" (but I've been called blasphemous and representing the Devil, so be warned). If this gets too ugly, maybe the admin can just shut it down.

So, here's my take (my journey). I'll introduce different aspects of my beliefs so that it can be discussed separately, as they are all controversial.

The first part is, Does God exists? Firstly, the question presumes the Christian God. Although it may include the Jews and Muslims, I will exclude them from my discussion mainly because I don't know much about their religions. There is an interesting passage in the beginning of John's gospel which says that (John 1:1 ESV)
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The interesting bit about this is that the Word is in Greek, logos - the root word of biology, psychology, etc., meaning reason or logic. The link here is to Stoicism, where the Greeks didn't so much believed in God but recognised that there's an underlying logic to human nature, just as there's an underlying logic to science (which is fundamentally an investigation into the laws or logic of nature).

The Greeks, esp. Stoics, believed that there's an underlying logic to human nature and that logic is called Natural Law, and it involves choosing Virtue over Vice. If you put aside the idea of God as "old man in the clouds", you may agree that we do have this human nature and that we should choose virtue over vice. If you agree, you already believe in God.
 

Easter essay on God and Jesus

Well we live in a new information era where religious manipulators of the past no longer have cover. Centuries ago someone with my ideas would be staked to a pole in some bonfire. But am Christian though don't subscribe to much developed denominational dogma nor OOO actions without forces.
 
As for God I believe some sort of creator started everything off in the universes. I don't know how he/she/they did it. I wish I did, it would answer a lot of questions for me. So in that sense I believe there is/was a God as a creator of evertything that ever started anywhere.!
 

I won't be adding to this thread (beyond this initial reply, I mean.) And the reason is that these threads always turn out the same... somebody baits, somebody bites, and we're off onto the same ol' tiring tangent that is inevitable... but it's to be expected with such a diverse worldwide membership.

We have believers, non-believers, Christian members, Jewish members, and Muslim members... and for the most part, I honestly believe we generally like each other... and our beliefs, or lack thereof don't get in the way until the bait is thrown out. I think most members even know the places from where that worm on the hook will be thrown.

That said, I do hope your thread is successful... it was a good idea to use "a Christian discussion" in your title, but it won't be adhered to, I'm afraid. Welcome to the forum, Boon.
 
Boon54 said:
(but I've been called blasphemous and representing the Devil, so be warned).
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You could bet that anything you say will be blasphemous to someone. God or not(?) sounds like a reasonable question, but my Grandmother would have said that is a one way ticket to Hell.
 
Somewhere in readings required by a previous employer, was a tome (maybe "How To Win Friends
And Influence people") which stated that talk of three things should be avoided with others:
1. Religious beliefs 2. Money 3. Politics
because some people are unable or unwilling to listen or contemplate perspectives about these subject
contrary to their beliefs.
Good advice, that.
 
CallMeKate said:
I won't be adding to this thread (beyond this initial reply, I mean.) And the reason is that these threads always turn out the same... somebody baits, somebody bites, and we're off onto the same ol' tiring tangent that is inevitable... but it's to be expected with such a diverse worldwide membership.

We have believers, non-believers, Christian members, Jewish members, and Muslim members... and for the most part, I honestly believe we generally like each other... and our beliefs, or lack thereof don't get in the way until the bait is thrown out. I think most members even know the places from where that worm on the hook will be thrown.

That said, I do hope your thread is successful... it was a good idea to use "a Christian discussion" in your title, but it won't be adhered to, I'm afraid. Welcome to the forum, Boon.
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Hiya, Kate. I'm just putting my journey out there to see where it takes me. I wasn't a Christian for the longest time (50 years) and saw no reason to be one. Then, not sure why, looking back, I looked into different religions and philosophies and came to the conclusion that (a) God exists and (b) Jesus is the answer. How and why? I'd like to just share that and get some responses. Hopefully, reasonable ones like yours.

And yes, we are more alike than different. And most of us, regardless of faith, get along with one another and can see the good in each other.
 
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Boon54 said:
Hiya, Kate. I'm just putting my journey out there to see where it takes me. I wasn't a Christian for the longest time (50 years) and saw no reason to be one. Then, not sure why, looking back, I looked into different religions and philosophies and came to the conclusion that (a) God exists and (b) Jesus is the answer. How and why? I'd like to just share that and get some responses. Hopefully, reasonable ones like yours.

And yes, we are more alike than different. And most of us, regardless of faith, get along with one another and can see the good in each other.
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I understand you wanting to share your beliefs. Sometimes, I would like to do the same, but if you haven't looked through some of the other threads about this subject in the forum, you might want to take a look at this thread to see some of the opinions that have already been expressed -> CLICK HERE.
 
Ruthanne said:
As for God I believe some sort of creator started everything off in the universes. I don't know how he/she/they did it. I wish I did, it would answer a lot of questions for me. So in that sense I believe there is/was a God as a creator of evertything that ever started anywhere.!
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In some thread here recently it was mentioned how DNA's "code" was evidence of a conscious act of creation, programming that allowed for adaptive variations to respond to environmental conditions. I call whoever that programmer is...God.

Don't believe me? Take a close look at a flower sometime, the evidence of creation is irrefutable.
 
Day 2
@CallMeKate gave me a good hook to go to the next step. The thing is, life for some of us is not as simple as it seems. When we lose our bearings, we can get depressed, angry, etc. and do regrettable stuff to ourselves and others. At times like this, we need a moral compass.

What is this moral compass? For the most part, society, family and friends are helpful. But not always. We do go through trying times, sometimes as a result of illness, accidents or "acts of God". And sometimes because of the very people we depend on. More often than not, we need to choose our own path.

Over the years, we have discovered, through research into psychology, some helpful clues. It helps to have a positive outlook in life. This is particularly difficult and particularly important when you find yourself in a difficult time and can't see anything good in your life. We call it gratitude.

The second thing that's needed is hope. Again, very important when things seem hopeless. The more hopeless, the more you need it.

When we feel positive about our lives, we tend to act in accordance with the Natural Law which is founded upon love. When not riled up or depressed, etc. we love one another and act accordingly, with grace and compassion.

Two things help us maintain our equanimity and act lovingly - meditation and prayer. This is well supported by research. At some point during meditation or prayer, we surrender to the great beyond and sometimes, when we do, we experience a great peace and comfort. Some describe it as oneness with the universe (e.g. Buddhism) but others describe it as being in the presence of God. However it is described, it is an overwhelmingly uplifting experience. Even transformative.

There are experiences of the complete opposite - extreme darkness and fear. But this is reportedly rare.

So, why God? Because we need this whether we know it or not. We may happily live our lives as best we can, and for the most part, I don't think God needs us to do anything more than that. But there are times when we need to reach out to Him. Times when we need to decide on actions which may be harmful, e.g. should we chop off the hands of people who steal.

When we are lost, who do we turn to? I think that's what happened to me. I studied everything I could, from philosophy to psychology to religion. I mainly focused on Buddhism and Christianity since they're exemplary, and the "purest" versions of what's out there. And lots of easily available and respectable literature. Over time, I came across Stoicism, and that was really interesting.
 
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Day 3
In Day 1, I've suggested that there's a Natural Law or logic that governs human behaviour. This is a very ancient and universal perception. All human societies are built around this law and there have been many attempts to pin it down.

The thing to note here is that it's not about living together in harmony. It's about us. If we are able to live according to this law, we see ourselves as better people, stronger somehow. Not physically but mentally, emotionally or spiritually.

Social laws are derived from this Natural Law, rather than the other way around. You will find this in literature on social laws. We start off with "self-evident" statements about right and wrong and go from there to argue about what to do about it.

At its simplest, it may be defined in terms of equity - do unto others as you would others do unto you. It has also been defined in terms of compassion - caring for others as you might care for yourself, or would like others to care for you.

In this second version, it's often unequal. We care for those who need our care and who may not be able to care back. Indeed, this inequality is more often the case.

As far as I know, only one person has defined it as love - love God and love one another. One of the reasons I'm attracted to Christianity is because I think Jesus hit the nail right on its head. Not only is it true, no one else has been able to explain it better before or since.

The problem though is that it's really difficult to do. It takes you into very deep waters and we often struggle with it. What Jesus said to that is that you can't do it alone, you need God.
 
Boon54, I don't know where you live, but in the UK the belief in 'God' is steadily declining, especially amongst the younger population. A majority of the population may describe themselves as 'Christian', but do not practice this. Most others do not follow any religion.
Church attendance is very low and most church goers are older people.
Interestingly, a significant number believe in a higher spiritual force - but NOT a god.
 
Everyone is just scared to die. This fear is within us for all of our lives. The fear is so intense we just make up stuff to try to feel better. It works, for some of us. Knowledge of our own eventual death is the driving force of life. IMO
 
have you forgot to take ya pills again Pepper?? blasphemous - you got as blasphe mouse!! here mouse here mouse come here!!
 
Day 4
@Pepper brought up a good point. We are all afraid to die.Yes, and no. Most of us don't want to die. That's natural. But life throws us some nasty curves sometimes and life can seem not worth living. It's said that most people who tried to commit suicide regret it but at the same time, the number of repeated attempts, and more successfully the second time, are very high (25 to 40%).

I used to think that I've not been around for the longest time before I was born and I don't think I'd be afraid to return to that state, lol. We sleep and during that time, we're basically "dead" to the world but we aren't afraid of going to sleep.

Eternal hell and damnation? Now that's a different thing. Which may be why as we get to this age, we start thinking about God and religion.

The good news is that most of what we know of the afterlife, if there's one, is generally good news. Firstly, during meditation and prayer, our experiences are often comforting and sometimes even sublime joy. Secondly, Near Death Experiences have been researched and often found to be positive ones. Not just a sense of being calm and peaceful but of being filled with love. Not unlike the experiences of deep meditation and prayer.

Which brings me to a simple but interesting observation. We are aware of ourselves and the world spiritually. By this I mean that although we perceive ourselves to be part of an external world, our experience of it is actually an internal experience. And when our experience of the external world is somehow interfered with, e.g. when we sleep, take drugs, fall ill, we experience a different world. We see the world, through the lens of science, as a physical world. But we are in fact spiritual creatures. Spiritual creatures that can exist outside our bodies and experience "life" independent of it (e.g. when we sleep).
 
Day 5
We ended yesterday by saying that we are spiritual creatures. This is not just a convenient description of how we experience life. The thing is, our spiritual health determines our physical health. This is true even mentally and emotionally. If we have a strong spiritual faith, our mental and emotional capacity and resilience are stronger as well.

For the longest time, even today in some places, human societies have brought up their children through the lens of spirituality. The Nature we experience as human beings is the very opposite of the Nature that science studies. Nature, to us, is alive, the changing of seasons, the cycle of night and day, plants and animals. And us, of course. Except for the larger dynamics of seasons and day/night, science has very little to say about the Nature we experience.

Historically, all societies we know of have an underpinning spiritual foundation, an explanation of how the universe came about and how we should live our lives. The explanation may be reasonable or unreasonable as a narrative but they are all based on a "reality" that goes beyond our experienced reality. They are commonly supernatural. This spiritual explanation serves to structure our human lives, and like it or not, we have found that it's an essential component of mental health.

Much of our current mental illness (as
opposed to mental disease, which can be traced to imbalances in our brains and require medication) appears to be a result of this lack of spiritual foundation. There is considerable research that the right spiritual understanding of our lives is essential for our mental health.

The essence of this spiritual health is as follows:
1. We need to have a strong moral compass
2. We need to have hope - that our troubles today will fade or be resolved tomorrow
3. We need to have faith - that we will somehow overcome these troubles even though it seems overwhelming at the moment
3. We need to be compassionate - that other people, regardless of how they may seem to us, are struggling like we are and deserve our help
4. We need to love and to be loved - we expect this from our family, but we also seek people outside our family to fall in love with and make a new family

The thing is, this spiritual foundation often runs counter to our experienced reality and is often not evidently advantageous to us. Instead, our spiritual pursuit often leads us away from material advantage, and in its most physical form, loving one another, is a sacrificial act. We sacrifice for the people we love. And it makes us happy to do so.
 
Boon54 said:
The first part is, Does God exists? Firstly, the question presumes the Christian God. Although it may include the Jews and Muslims, I will exclude them from my discussion mainly because I don't know much about their religions.
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Right from the off, you admit you don't know. If you don't know their beliefs and history, how do you know your beliefs are valid?
 
VaughanJB said:
Right from the off, you admit you don't know. If you don't know their beliefs and history, how do you know your beliefs are valid?
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Good point. As with everything on life, we cannot know everything and yet we need to act upon our beliefs as we see them. It's a good reason for me to put my views out there to receive responses. It's one way to see if my beliefs are valid or not.
 
VaughanJB said:
Right from the off, you admit you don't know. If you don't know their beliefs and history, how do you know your beliefs are valid?
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Also my beliefs do not negate theirs. Maybe the truth is something larger than both, or neither? Paradox is one of the most persistent facts of life.
 
from my own readings of particularly the OT - it certainly seemed that a very clear dialogue was taking place between God and humans on a regular basis - now either it 'the Bible' is one big fairy tale and if you believe this to be so then call it it for what you believe or not??
 
smiley said:
from my own readings of particularly the OT - it certainly seemed that a very clear dialogue was taking place between God and humans on a regular basis - now either it 'the Bible' is one big fairy tale and if you believe this to be so then call it it for what you believe or not??
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Not exactly a 'Fairy tale', but a mish mash of ancient legends from thousands of years BCE, passed on my oral traditions, transcribed, misinterpreted, redacted, tweaked to suit the flavour of the day and then peddled as the 'true' word. Oh, there is probably a grain of truth somewhere in there, but I view the Bible , both old and new testaments, as no more than what people knew and believed at the time.
 

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