God, or not? A Christian Discussion

I was born and raised Lutheran, and I never understood the focus on Jesus as an object of worship. He was the son, not the God. He had a short life, and now he's not even around anymore.
Muslims have a saying..."Worship the Creator, not the creation". It's interesting to find out that Lutherans do not focus their worship on Christ.

@Boon54 You wrote: "@OneEyedDiva @Pepper. I'm not excluding Muslims or Jews, lol. I'm just confining my statements to Christianity simply because (a) I'm Christian and (b) I don't want to say things about other religions that might be offensive."
Understandable, thus understood.
 

It's interesting to find out that Lutherans do not focus their worship on Christ.
Oh, they worship and pray to Jesus. It's just that I didn't. It just made better sense to tell your stuff to the big guy. He hears it all. The other members of the Holy Trinity are said to be God anyway. So I guess you could talk to Jesus, and God would know about it, because they are all one. But two of the Trinity are just redundant add ons. But as a being that knows all, I should be able to pray to my dog, and the message would be heard by God.

This is the basic tenet of AA. You seek guidance from your higher power, and everyone knows this is God, but it is also firmly denied. Those who are skeptical are told any higher power will work. It can even be a door knob (I'm not kidding. I have actually been told that very thing on more than one occasion). I see door knobs, nature, and oak trees as training wheels to believe in a god. You just assign them mystical qualities, and you are on your way to being a spiritual person. I never took AA seriously. I quit drinking without it.
 

@OneEyedDiva On the matter of the Christian God and the Muslim God, being the same, I would agree. That assumes of course there is just one god, with everyone around the world naming and describing him differently. But people will disagree, because that's what people do.

On long cross-country drives I would listen to the radio constantly. Sometimes I would dial past one of those radio ministries, and go back and listen just for the fun of it. I would even bellow out an, "Amen, Brother," on occasion. But just after 9-11, this minister said he had been approached by a Muslim that told him they both believed in the same God. I doubt that he even had such a conversation, but the rest of the sermon was all about the minister telling the Muslim off with the real truth, and that they did not believe in the same god.

The one thing I remember most clearly was him telling the Muslim, "My God is the god of love and peace. Your God is the god of hate and murder," followed up with enough differences he could make up to fill the next 20 minutes, all reflecting on how the Christian God was superior to the Muslim God. The one thing he did not say was, "My god could beat up your god," but he might just as well have added that.

In a way it was kind of sad. I think he must have had a weekly show and he had run out of sermons and had to come up with something. Maybe being the shock jock of Christian radio would get him more listeners.
 
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It's a question man has been asking, seemingly, from the very beginning. At least when we climbed down from the tree's. Before that we were amphibians, and I don't think fish have these kinds of debates. :D
Climbed down from trees as apes/monkeys? Or started as amphibians? Okay, how did they come about?
 
Day 7
Thank you everyone. It seems that we can have a respectful conversation about God after all, lol. The thing is, after I committed myself to Christianity, and I will share my reasoning later, I found several things in the Bible which led me to certain beliefs that kinda ran against what other Christians believed, and which they tried to get me to agree with.

The first and perhaps most controversial is that you have to believe in God and worship only Him to get to heaven. It is implied that access to this God is only available through Judaism, or Christianity (sorry, Islam is not mentioned in the Bible, but bear with me). Many Christians believe that Christ has replaced Judaism and that you now have to believe in Jesus as Son of God in order go to heaven.

But the Bible tells a totally different story. God judged Adam and Eve and everyone else all the way to Moses without requiring the Ten Commandments. Also, He never vowed to destroy humankind because they didn't believe in Him. He was upset because humankind in those days were immoral. They didn't follow what I've called the Natural Law.

There are actually a few instances in the Bible where God blessed non-Jews. The most famous of this is the story of Jonah. Most of us know the story of Jonah as the guy who got swallowed by a whale and lived. What we are often not told is that the whole story is based on the notion that God told Jonah, a Jewish prophet, to save the city of Nineveh, who were not Jews.

It seems to me that God is more interested in the kind of person you are than whether or not you believed in Him. This is brought out most strongly in Matthew 7:21–23:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” (Matthew 7:21–23, NIV)

Oops. It appears that Jesus may reject you even if you did miracles in his name. Elsewhere, Jesus also said something about worshipping money (Matthew 6:24):

“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”

It's obvious here that worshipping is not about going to church of the God of Wealth and praying to money. It's about what's uppermost in your hearts. And it's not about "religion", i.e. which God is the true God.

You can even be a Christian (dunno about Jews and Muslims) and not go to heaven! Oh dear.
 
I just can't imagine immortals could look / completely resemble me.

I pray to my Lord and am relieved by how I soon feel. I don't ask for stuff,
thank him for what he has let me do.
Man wrote the Bible and got it wrong. Maybe they recorded what was said close to correct?

I have a feeling the Lord is experimenting. Think the universe is an experiment. Screwed too!
I soon pray after I say what I think, but I have those options.

Jew's Christians? Think not in the sense Jesus saves us who are not Jews.
 
Climbed down from trees as apes/monkeys? Or started as amphibians? Okay, how did they come about?

Evolution is well documented. We fully understand the process that led from amoeba to man, along with all the other creatures of our world.

yes - it all can develop into a strange and confusing "who dunnit mystery" heh??

It doesn't have to be a "who". It can simply be a set of circumstances, a mix of components.
 
the scientists often get it all wrong as Charles Darwin pointed out?

It is less about the scientist, who indeed can be incorrect, and more about the scientific process. The scientific process is pretty much a fool proof way of our testing a thesis. That is, as long as the process is followed.

Some people struggle with Science, citing mistakes and errors, if not out and out corruption. This is because corporations recognized that the scientific process is the best method man has come up with to prove a thesis, so they subverted it to sell us things, or to justify their actions. So we have cherry-picked results, stated results that have not been through peer review, scientists/labs paid for statements that are incomplete or untrue, or just plain lies. But that's on them, it is not a knock on the scientific process itself.

I've never seen a number ascribed to the number of thesis that are proven untrue, or failed. I'd assume they're far greater in number than those proven true. What we should remember is, the purpose of the scientific process is to discover truth.
 
Understanding reality is fraught with difficulties, and science often gets it wrong before it gets it right, and even then, remains open to more investigation. This probably causes difficulty for people that want an explanation that is unchanging. It can be disconcerting to be told one thing and then have to learn that it's wrong so that they must update their internal library.
 
It seems as we discuss this concept of God, we know now that our concept needs updating. A God that only serves your people is too small. That is how the God's get into wars. Updating our own concepts of God is necessary also. If God is everyone's then we are the same children of God. Let's work together rather than kill each other. :)
 
Evolution is well documented. We fully understand the process that led from amoeba to man, along with all the other creatures of our world.



It doesn't have to be a "who". It can simply be a set of circumstances, a mix of components.
How'd the amoeba come about?
 
How'd the amoeba come about?
Deepseek.ai :

Amoebas, single-celled eukaryotes belonging to the group **Amoebozoa**, emerged through a series of evolutionary milestones tied to the origin of complex life. Here's a concise breakdown:

1. **Origin of Eukaryotes**:
- Around **1.5–2 billion years ago**, eukaryotic cells evolved from simpler prokaryotic ancestors (bacteria/archaea). A key step was **endosymbiosis**: a host cell engulfed a bacterium, which became the **mitochondrion**, providing energy. This allowed for larger, more complex cells with nuclei and organelles.

2. **Evolution of Amoebozoans**:
- Amoebas are part of the **unikont** lineage of eukaryotes, which split from other groups (e.g., plants, algae) over **1 billion years ago**. Their defining feature—**pseudopodia** (temporary projections used for movement and feeding)—likely evolved as an adaptation to hunt bacteria or navigate environments.

3. **Key Adaptations**:
- **Phagocytosis**: The ability to engulf prey via pseudopodia was critical, driving diversification. This process may have also facilitated early endosymbiotic events (e.g., mitochondrial acquisition).
- **Flexibility**: Amoeboid movement and shape-shifting allowed survival in diverse habitats, from soil to water.

4. **Fossil Evidence**:
- Direct fossils are rare (soft bodies don’t fossilize well), but **vase-shaped microfossils** (~800 million years old) may represent early amoebas. Molecular clock studies suggest Amoebozoa diverged from other eukaryotes ~1.2–1.8 billion years ago.

5. **Modern Diversity**:
- Today’s amoebas (e.g., *Amoeba proteus*, slime molds) are diverse, but all share a common ancestor that mastered pseudopodial movement and heterotrophic feeding.

**Why It’s Hard to Pinpoint**:
- Lack of fossils and horizontal gene transfer complicate tracing exact origins. However, genetic analyses and comparative biology highlight their deep evolutionary roots among early eukaryotes.

In short, amoebas arose from the dynamic interplay of endosymbiosis, cellular innovation, and ecological adaptation in Earth’s ancient microbial world. Their story is part of the broader saga of eukaryotic life’s rise to complexity.
 
Whether from natural processes or actions of some ultimate race of intelligent entities, it is certain life has come to exist on planet Earth. IMO, given space exploration programs within our own solar system, abiogenesis on Earth will soon be discarded. In recent decades the former dismissed by many scientist concept of panspermia has been increasingly embraced as likely, especially as science has discovered:

  • How truly robust and hardy some extremophile microbes are.
  • How life on Earth apparently began an incredibly short time after the planet cooled enough for organic molecules to exist.
  • How the size of the universe is vastly larger than was thought a century ago, now with an estimated 2 trillion galaxies, each with billions of stars and mega billions of planets.
  • How the likelihood of existence of other vastly more advanced intelligent entities in the universe are more likely. Entities that over billions of years could spread DNA life via directed panspermia.

 
How did ANY THINGS (including one celled) come to be in the first place, plus become LIVING things? Nevermind. :)
I understand your metaphysical question. What if the universe supplies all the building blocks. Maybe on other planets "life" is completely different? Now one would ask where did the building blocks come from? I think that intelligent aliens are doing experimental scientific work with introducing life here.
 
Day 7
Thank you everyone. It seems that we can have a respectful conversation about God after all, lol. The thing is, after I committed myself to Christianity, and I will share my reasoning later, I found several things in the Bible which led me to certain beliefs that kinda ran against what other Christians believed, and which they tried to get me to agree with.

The first and perhaps most controversial is that you have to believe in God and worship only Him to get to heaven. It is implied that access to this God is only available through Judaism, or Christianity (sorry, Islam is not mentioned in the Bible, but bear with me). Many Christians believe that Christ has replaced Judaism and that you now have to believe in Jesus as Son of God in order go to heaven.

But the Bible tells a totally different story. God judged Adam and Eve and everyone else all the way to Moses without requiring the Ten Commandments. Also, He never vowed to destroy humankind because they didn't believe in Him. He was upset because humankind in those days were immoral. They didn't follow what I've called the Natural Law.

There are actually a few instances in the Bible where God blessed non-Jews. The most famous of this is the story of Jonah. Most of us know the story of Jonah as the guy who got swallowed by a whale and lived. What we are often not told is that the whole story is based on the notion that God told Jonah, a Jewish prophet, to save the city of Nineveh, who were not Jews.

It seems to me that God is more interested in the kind of person you are than whether or not you believed in Him. This is brought out most strongly in Matthew 7:21–23:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” (Matthew 7:21–23, NIV)

Oops. It appears that Jesus may reject you even if you did miracles in his name. Elsewhere, Jesus also said something about worshipping money (Matthew 6:24):

“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”

It's obvious here that worshipping is not about going to church of the God of Wealth and praying to money. It's about what's uppermost in your hearts. And it's not about "religion", i.e. which God is the true God.

You can even be a Christian (dunno about Jews and Muslims) and not go to heaven! Oh dear.
@Elsie Oh dear, why are you sad?
 
Then God said " let us make man in our image, in our likeness.... etc

Qu who was God talking to himself?

Genesis 1 v 20- .................and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground" question - who was God talking to at this very moment?

So God created man in his own image ????????? - so do we really look like God and have done so all along? ...................male and female he created them v27

v28 God blessed them - Qu HOW? and said be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it etc etc

And thus the heavens and earth the earth were completed in all their vast array

nb: I have read the bible quite a few times in life but each time it is almost as if I am reading it anew. What seem like simple statements become so profound.

many references:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16

Each time I re-commence it reminds me it is the living bread of life - water struck from the rock
 
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