well that could certainly be a valid viewpoint for sure?? however if we really wanted to delve deep it is not just the bible or koran or buddhist scrolls etc that would need studying but I believe we cannot discount the many more updated studies by social scientists of our times to consider their view also- and this is how good accurate history is studied and used
God, or not? A Christian Discussion
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OneEyedDiva
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This is a public forum, so why in heaven's name are you excluding me??!! I am a Muslim, but spent more than half of my 78 years as a Christian. To believe in God is to have faith in the unseen. I grew up in the African Methodist Episcopal (AME) church; we are considered Methodists. I don't remember ever feeling that we were worshipping Jesus instead of God (the Creator). Although our church mentioned The Trinity, I didn't find out that other Christians focus their worship on Jesus until I was grown when my BFF and I had a discussion about religion She is not Methodist.
FYI Muslims worship God. The same God that the book of Genisis says created heaven, Earth, humans and the creatures on our planet. Muslims feel that Jesus, Moses and the other prophets from biblical times are to be revered, but not worshipped. Decades ago, I saw a special on local T.V., titled Is Jesus The Son of God. The Christian minister explained that due to the differences in the way language was used then and now, the word sun (ie: Jesus was viewed as the light) was misinterpreted as Son . He also said that Jesus was asked several times by a "counsel member" looking to trick him, thus have a reason to punish him, was he worthy to be worshipped. Jesus answered each time that he was not worthy to be worshipped.
Other food for thought...Jesus asked his follower to worship as he worshipped. Jesus did not worship himself. He meant for them to worship God. People hear the word Allah and think Muslims are worshipping a different God. Allah is simply the Arabic word for God, just as Dios is God in Spanish. Muslims worship God (Allah) and only Him.
FYI Muslims worship God. The same God that the book of Genisis says created heaven, Earth, humans and the creatures on our planet. Muslims feel that Jesus, Moses and the other prophets from biblical times are to be revered, but not worshipped. Decades ago, I saw a special on local T.V., titled Is Jesus The Son of God. The Christian minister explained that due to the differences in the way language was used then and now, the word sun (ie: Jesus was viewed as the light) was misinterpreted as Son . He also said that Jesus was asked several times by a "counsel member" looking to trick him, thus have a reason to punish him, was he worthy to be worshipped. Jesus answered each time that he was not worthy to be worshipped.
Other food for thought...Jesus asked his follower to worship as he worshipped. Jesus did not worship himself. He meant for them to worship God. People hear the word Allah and think Muslims are worshipping a different God. Allah is simply the Arabic word for God, just as Dios is God in Spanish. Muslims worship God (Allah) and only Him.
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Boon54
Member
@OneEyedDiva @Pepper. I'm not excluding Muslims or Jews, lol. I'm just confining my statements to Christianity simply because (a) I'm Christian and (b) I don't want to say things about other religions that might be offensive.
Having said that, one of the points I'm going to make later, and maybe I should make it now, is that I think God is beyond religion. God was God to Adam and Eve, and to the whole of humanity before Abraham. Jesus took God to the Gentiles and in his teaching and parables, he never differentiated between Jews and Gentiles. Indeed, several of Jesus's parables praised Gentiles (e.g. the Good Samaritan is a Gentile). But all this will come later.
I am sharing my journey and being Christian meant I'll be talking as a Christian. I will be referencing Buddhism and Stoicism as they have influenced modern psychology and Christianity respectively. I'm happy to hear your views and do not see other religions as false.
Welcome.
Boon54
Member
BTW, I've been called blasphemous and influenced by the Devil or Satan by some Christian groups, lol. Thankfully, not by the church I go to, lol. So, it will be helpful if you don't jump to conclusions just yet. And also, I'm sharing my views because I want to hear yours.
Boon54
Member
For example, me saying "God was God to Adam and Eve, and to the whole of humanity before Abraham. Jesus took God to the Gentiles and in his teaching and parables, he never differentiated between Jews and Gentiles. Indeed, several of Jesus's parables praised Gentiles (e.g. the Good Samaritan is a Gentile)." is a reference to the Bible I know. I don't know if it's true for the Jews and Muslims as well. It's also not something that mainstream Christianity believe (they believe that God is only God to Christians). But I can dispute their beliefs by referring to the same Bible we share, which I don't know applies to the "Bibles" of the Jews and Muslims.
PS: Yes, I know that Jews and Muslims don't call their holy books Bibles. Sheesh.
Knight
Well-known Member
This of course is your opening statement. What was the reason?
Agree
Knight
Well-known Member
I did fear death earlier in my life, but that changed somewhere in my 70's. Acceptance that death is inevitable. For me acceptance came knowing I have no control over when & how.
Now every once in awhile I get a feeling of sadness due to expecting to die before my wife. Leaving her knowing she will suffer emotionally & I won't be able to comfort her.
And yes I understand that she could die 1st.
MarkD
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Welcome Boon54, I'm not a Christian nor a member of any other spiritual tradition. Yet I've always felt something greater within. I'm not the least bit afraid of death but I do not expect any continuation of my own existence. I have no trouble making sense of God but I don't do that by looking it up. Doesn't work that way; all you get is other people's opinion.
I think of God as the ground of being, that from which all else comes. But I don't think of God as a kind of engineer nor as any kind of being in His own right and certainly nothing like a person. I actually lean toward thinking God creates by becoming what will be and then handing the wheel over to us to find our way. We are special because we can become aware of this inner something greater and have a relationship. I think of it as a partnership, albeit an unequal one.
Paco Dennis
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I know by experience that Muslims and Christians worship the same God and love each other. I have had many friends who were/are Muslim. it bothers me that some people think all Muslims are militant. Right now there is a terrible war that is killing thousands because some powerful rich people don't believe they are related to each other. Maybe if they realized there is but one God, and many paths.
Boon54
Member
Day 6
The comments so far have been respectful and useful. And you have given me another good opening for my discussion. I think I am fundamentally like @MarkD. But I didn't even believe in God at all. Like many of you, I felt that Christianity wasn't and still isn't an attractive religion to people who are more tolerant of other people and religion.
I turned to Christianity because I had questions about my life and I needed answers. I was somewhat depressed and not handling aging well. I felt that I've missed the boat, or something. My life wasn't what I thought it would be and I needed to make sense of it and to understand what's the point of my life. Why bother?
I read around as much as I could and settled on Christianity largely because I was brought up in a Western environment and it's the religion I know most about. Also, there is plenty of literature around it, both positive and negative. And I could read into it and make up my own mind.
Funnily enough, it was a book against Christianity, Bertrand Russell's Why I Am Not A Christian, that convinced me about Jesus Christ and Christianity. In the book, he had the usual arguments against Christianity and suggested that the solution is for us to just learn to love one another.
I was, like, 'scuse me, you adopted the key command of the very religion you rubbished. Of course, I was reading into his book the exact opposite of what he meant. But here's the thing, I can rubbish Bertrand Russell all I like, but I wouldn't rubbish anyone's beliefs and religion. So, I can talk about Christianity and be critical about it. But I can't say it applies, or not, to other religions, esp. Judaism and Islam, since they belong to the same tradition but are yet not within the same grouping.
Hopefully, this will help the reader to see where I'm coming from and respond meaningfully.
The comments so far have been respectful and useful. And you have given me another good opening for my discussion. I think I am fundamentally like @MarkD. But I didn't even believe in God at all. Like many of you, I felt that Christianity wasn't and still isn't an attractive religion to people who are more tolerant of other people and religion.
I turned to Christianity because I had questions about my life and I needed answers. I was somewhat depressed and not handling aging well. I felt that I've missed the boat, or something. My life wasn't what I thought it would be and I needed to make sense of it and to understand what's the point of my life. Why bother?
I read around as much as I could and settled on Christianity largely because I was brought up in a Western environment and it's the religion I know most about. Also, there is plenty of literature around it, both positive and negative. And I could read into it and make up my own mind.
Funnily enough, it was a book against Christianity, Bertrand Russell's Why I Am Not A Christian, that convinced me about Jesus Christ and Christianity. In the book, he had the usual arguments against Christianity and suggested that the solution is for us to just learn to love one another.
I was, like, 'scuse me, you adopted the key command of the very religion you rubbished. Of course, I was reading into his book the exact opposite of what he meant. But here's the thing, I can rubbish Bertrand Russell all I like, but I wouldn't rubbish anyone's beliefs and religion. So, I can talk about Christianity and be critical about it. But I can't say it applies, or not, to other religions, esp. Judaism and Islam, since they belong to the same tradition but are yet not within the same grouping.
Hopefully, this will help the reader to see where I'm coming from and respond meaningfully.
I applaud your trying to work things out and seeking God from your heart!
Paco Dennis
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Am I to understand that you prefer a religion that is somewhat restrictive? I also understand how people feel this. Is the proclamation that Jesus is the only way to God too restrictive? It is to me, and those who secretly believe this dogma, ruin other people's lives.
David777
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Most ordinary Catholics don't go around pressuring other denomination Christians and in fact have relatively shallow religious beliefs with only mediocre Bible knowledge. I've never heard mass sermons against other denominational beliefs. And then there are some other Christian denominations that apparently loath Catholic dogma. As someone that has occasionally attended some of those other churches when visiting fundamentalist relatives, I have experienced unexpected anger from some once they learned I was a visiting practicing Catholic without even saying anything. So animosity tends to be denomination and or individual person related. Of course in this era, my current Christian beliefs as someone that has in recent decades read and researched much, especially Bible scripture, is highly fringe, science based.
The OP is wise to continue his own independent path of discovery.
The OP is wise to continue his own independent path of discovery.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Remember, we don't even know who wrote the various books in the Bible.
there is a quote in there somewhere ?? no good comin on here and claiming you read the bible and you didn't spot this or pardon me still on OT first perhaps??
2 Timothy 3:16-17
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
no good coming on here and spouting about
2 Timothy 3:16-17
King James Version
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
no good coming on here and spouting about
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Man, humans, are very inquisitive. Just look at what we've learned in a very short period of time. Just look at what we've invented, it's truly a wonder.
Part of that are some pretty deep-rooted things: Where did we come from, what is conscience, where did the universe come from, and how did it start, etc.
Ancient man didn't have all the advantages we have today, and while they definitely weren't simply apes hiding in caves, they didn't have the benefit of generations of learning and discovery that we have today. Sometimes they did what made sense to them, such as worshiping the Sun as a God because hey, it made the grain grow! Or they would look at the stars, see shapes, and think they were meaningful, etc. They answered things given the, relative, limited set of data they had.
That didn't stop them wanting to answer these fundamental questions, and for much of the world that ended up being a singularity. That singularity is known as a God. At the same time, societies were growing both in size and sophistication, and they quickly learned that there were customs, and norms that were needed to keep everyone safe. We're a social animal, we like to stick together. We recognize what makes, and what breaks. These things got codified into the law, and norms, of the day.
Through the years, as man learned how to communicate with writings and drawings, these things were recorded. One of the books is a collection of stories that attempt to explain where we all come from, how we should live, and whom we should worship. You might call such a book, The Bible. The Bible isn't a book simply about God, it covers a lot of territory from historical events to temptations, philosophy, and the function of society. As such, it's one of the great works of man.
The issue, it seems to me, is whether one takes what is written literally, or not. And it's not easy, because you can't simply say "the Bible is all rubbish", because there are some historical facts in there, rules and laws we recognize, etc. No matter what, some of it has value. Which is why my own brain says that the value of the Bible and its teachings can be separated from the question of if there is a God. Even if there's not a God, a lot of what's there is important.
I don't think it's possible to know if there's a God. Not 100%. Just like, at the moment, we can't know what happened before the Big Bang (if there even was such a thing). We simply don't have the data. We have ideas, concepts, and some experimental work - but no definitive answers. Which is why we rely on faith.
We all rely on faith to an extent, I think. For example, I have a strong belief that there is life on other planets. We haven't found it yet, and I'm not convinced they're visiting us. But I do believe it's out there somewhere. I can only base that on blind faith, because we have zero evidence. Other people have faith in a God. That's a hurdle I can't get over. The answer for now must be - we don't know.
To Know God
there is tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of this material around - anyone with a pc and capable of reading and inwardly studying and perhaps taking a few notes ; cross-referencing etc can go a long way - but there are other ways too - I have seen micraculous changes in people who have walked into a church perhaps for the first time in their lives and listen to a good sermon preached on salvation - it happens to people or used to every week - give it a try.
I'd tend to stir away from the big ornate churches who have been around forever and try a few smaller ones - there is an very unusual one in fact called "The Church of Christ" - not Rome of England or Peter or Paul no the risen Christ - they usually do a good gig??
there is tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of this material around - anyone with a pc and capable of reading and inwardly studying and perhaps taking a few notes ; cross-referencing etc can go a long way - but there are other ways too - I have seen micraculous changes in people who have walked into a church perhaps for the first time in their lives and listen to a good sermon preached on salvation - it happens to people or used to every week - give it a try.
I'd tend to stir away from the big ornate churches who have been around forever and try a few smaller ones - there is an very unusual one in fact called "The Church of Christ" - not Rome of England or Peter or Paul no the risen Christ - they usually do a good gig??
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
It's a question man has been asking, seemingly, from the very beginning. At least when we climbed down from the tree's. Before that we were amphibians, and I don't think fish have these kinds of debates.
well I do agree with all of that - many thanks - hope you weren't suggesting I was excluding you - have read through the thread three times now and cannot find me excluding you?? - yes I think there is great great justification for suggesting that we are in the main all worshiping the same God by different names. I can remember someone telling me that a christian walking through a village with his/her bible of say mainly Muslim villagers would be always made welcome and acknowledged as a man/woman of the Book!!
ps: however there is a mystery of sorts and that is what the christians refer to as the Holy Trinity - The Father ; the Son and The Holy Spirit - suggesting that they are one in three and three in one perhaps - so perhaps can be revered together??
JustDave
Well-known Member
I was born and raised Lutheran, and I never understood the focus on Jesus as an object of worship. He was the son, not the God. He had a short life, and now he's not even around anymore.
OneEyedDiva
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I was not addressing you when I asked why I was excluded. I was addressing Boon, who posted the thread. If I was addressing you, I would have either used your reply before responding or tagged you to get your attention.
OneEyedDiva
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Thank you for posting this Paco
Too bad your testimony will not reach the hearts of the Islamaphobics, some of whom are on this forum (unless they've left). The bad actors who are killing innocents are not following the edict in the Quran that forbids it.This is from Islamweb.net
"Islam is portrayed as a religion of “terror” and “killing”, yet this is just one of the most widely held misconceptions about Islam. Allah Almighty states unambiguously in the Quran (what means): "Nor take life -- which Allah has made sacred -- except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)." [Quran 17:33]
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Boon, of course English-speaking Jews call their holy book(s) "The Bible." The word is simply a modern version of the ancient Greek and Latin words for "book."
I don't know much about the Muslim religion, but I hear the Koran referred to pretty often. That may be the Muslim version of Bible.
The Bible of the Jewish religion actually consists of three books, which are usually referred to by Christians as the Old Testament. They are the Torah (the five books of Moses), the Prophets, and the Writings. The Hebrew word for this book, actually an acronym of the three sections, is Tanach (difficult to show the pronunciation in English). But most Jews call it the Bible. That is not an exclusively Christian word.
Just thought I'd get my 2 cents in. I think the Jewish Bible is partly fascinating, partly just a boring list of stuff. In addition to being a historic record about people, governments, wars, plagues, etc., it was sort of an official record-keeping system. Some of its stories are wonderful. My favorite, which as far as I know never mentions God at all, is the book of Joseph.