Grandchildren living far away

Bobw235

Bobw235

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I've written on this topic in the past, but wanted to revisit it to see if the collective wisdom of this board might have suggestions for dealing with a difficult situation. In summary:
  • Only son married a British woman and resides in England and has no intention of moving back.
  • They have two children (a boy, 5 and a girl, 3).
  • Our relationship with our daughter-in-law is poor for a number of reasons, but primarily it's because of miscommunication and her (likely) ongoing depression/anxiety. She's an emotionally abusive whacko in non-scientific terms. Example: She was offended after my wife complained about a dismal week in Scotland (rain, cold, wind) after our grandson was born. She said it was disrespectful of my wife to complain about a place that has special meaning for her.
  • Our son as told us that they intend to divorce at some point in the future, but that won't happen for a few years if at all as she's going to "university" to learn a new profession and has announced that she's taking a year off to be with their younger daughter before she starts school in 2017.
  • We've been there three times since our grandson was born.
  • Son is only one working and they have no money to travel here. I proposed that he come here with his son for a visit and that we'd pay his way.
  • Following a two week vacation to England last year where we paid for everything and stayed together, we've not heard a word from our daughter-in-law.
  • My wife and I have separately reached out to her to try to "mend fences" and start fresh, putting the emphasis on making sure we get to know our grandkids. Never received a reply to my email sent two months ago, as our DIL has "no emotional space" to deal with the issues between us according to our son.
  • Last night sent a very stern note to our son putting the ball in his court saying: Tell us how we make this work so we can have a relationship with our grandkids. As it is us see them about ever 2-3 weeks for 15 minutes over video. It's not working to foster closeness and a better relationship with them.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be most welcome. My wife is so upset over all this. It consumes her thoughts. It's been a year since we saw the grandkids in person.
 

The reason I am living where I am now instead of New Zealand or Roseville, California is to be closer to my immediate family of daughter, grand children and great grand children. They are all within 20 minutes of where I live. My ex wife has done the same thing and was the main reason for our AMICABLE DIVORCE.
 
Bob, I applaud your "stern note." I hope it bears fruit. Re your daughter in law. I have my doubts that anything you and your wife could do would satisfy her. I think she's a narcissist, who believes she is the main attraction in her life, and everyone

else is a bit player. I feel for you and your son. I had a mother like that, you cannot reason with these people, I suspect your son goes along with her,either because she has brainwashed him, or he wants peace at any price. This personality disorder

takes no prisoners, but turns the lives of loved ones into a toxic soap opera. In my experience, eventually, one must set boundaries in order to stay sane. On no account fall victim to the fantasy that somehow this is your fault. It isn't. This is a

divide and conquer strategy, designed to ensure that DIL retains her control over your son and grandchildren. Classic abusive narcissistic pathology. On a more positive note, your son is young yet. Often, as they mature, spouses rebel against the

tyranny of these emotional vampires. Should that happen, he will need the support of his parents. I wish you the best during this difficult time. Hugs.
 

I have more I could say on this topic, but just a quick suggestion for now. How about writing to your grandkids? There is something about the written word that can be more bonding than visual or even face to face contact. I'm thinking "snail mail", but I know nothing about cell phones or texting. Would they work internationally? I feel deeply for you on this subject, Bob. Our grandkids lived close, and were the greatest joy of our lives. I was fortunate enough to be unemployed for a year and was their daily baby sitter when they were three years old. The happiest time of my life. No adult supervision!
One is living rent free upstairs right now. He will move out to get married the end of this month and the other is moving in with his wife to live rent free until they can save enough for a house.
 
Shalimar said:
Bob, I applaud your "stern note." I hope it bears fruit. Re your daughter in law. I have my doubts that anything you and your wife could do would satisfy her. I think she's a narcissist, who believes she is the main attraction in her life, and everyone

else is a bit player. I feel for you and your son. I had a mother like that, you cannot reason with these people, I suspect your son goes along with her,either because she has brainwashed him, or he wants peace at any price. This personality disorder

takes no prisoners, but turns the lives of loved ones into a toxic soap opera. In my experience, eventually, one must set boundaries in order to stay sane. On no account fall victim to the fantasy that somehow this is your fault. It isn't. This is a

divide and conquer strategy, designed to ensure that DIL retains her control over your son and grandchildren. Classic abusive narcissistic pathology. On a more positive note, your son is young yet. Often, as they mature, spouses rebel against the

tyranny of these emotional vampires. Should that happen, he will need the support of his parents. I wish you the best during this difficult time. Hugs.
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Thanks Shalimar. It's certainly been a vexing problem for many years, even before our son got married. We've tried all that we could think of to get close to our DIL. You've pegged her pretty well, and my wife looked up the term you used and the description is apt. Our son is one who does all he can to avoid conflict, so that just exacerbates the problem in trying to build a better bond. Our DIL needs counseling, but refuses to go. She's chronically worried about a medically insignificant issue involving her son and is on a perpetual mission to assign blame (to herself) for an issue that several doctors have assured her is nothing to be even slightly alarmed about. All of this has conspired to create a tense atmosphere when we've visited over there. We've told our son that he's in an abusive relationship, but he presents the classic signs of one who is abused: defending the spouse or saying that he brings it on. My wife is sick over this.

Thanks again for your thoughts. I'll keep you posted.
 
Underock1 said:
I have more I could say on this topic, but just a quick suggestion for now. How about writing to your grandkids? There is something about the written word that can be more bonding than visual or even face to face contact. I'm thinking "snail mail", but I know nothing about cell phones or texting. Would they work internationally? I feel deeply for you on this subject, Bob. Our grandkids lived close, and were the greatest joy of our lives. I was fortunate enough to be unemployed for a year and was their daily baby sitter when they were three years old. The happiest time of my life. No adult supervision!
One is living rent free upstairs right now. He will move out to get married the end of this month and the other is moving in with his wife to live rent free until they can save enough for a house.
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A good suggestion and one we've tried in the past with mixed results. I think the kids like getting the letters, but as we've told our son, it would be nice to get some form of feedback when we send a card of letter. Sometimes he'll shoot us a video of them reading the letter and that makes us feel good, but other times we get nothing. I've recently suggested to my son that he set up an email account (that he would obviously control) for our grandson. This way we could send mail to him and his sister and he'd get used to seeing this type of communication from us. Not that this would get us away from the hand written notes of course. I agree with you that his is crucial.

When my grandson was born, I was over the moon and the early visits were a joy for me. Last year spending two weeks with them was so special. Now that we're retired, we had hoped to be able to spend more time seeing them, or at least have better contact. It's still early in their lives, but I fear that we'll always be known as the grandparents they see on a small screen once in a while. How sad. Last year when we were with them for the two weeks, we were "allowed" to be alone with them for about 3 hours one night when our son and DIL went out for dinner. That was it. It's painful. Thanks for your thoughts and understanding.
 
I have followed up with my son saying that we'll pay for him to visit us here in the US with his son, pointing out the advantages to all of us. He wrote back saying his wife would never go for it, but I've pushed back and basically said "be a man, be a father" and do what's right.
 
Bobw235 said:
I have followed up with my son saying that we'll pay for him to visit us here in the US with his son, pointing out the advantages to all of us. He wrote back saying his wife would never go for it, but I've pushed back and basically said "be a man, be a father" and do what's right.
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IMO, you gave him an ultimatum. You will pay for just your son & grandson to visit. I can completely understand when your son tells you that his wife would never go for it. You are alienating your DIL & granddaughter, by only inviting your son & grandson to the states.

Do what's right....For whom...you and your wife? Sounds selfish to me.

Doesn't the Bible state that a man shall leave his mother & father, and shall cleave onto his wife?

They are a young married couple with two small children, trying to make a life of their own. I'd say, he is trying to be a man, a father and doing what is right for his family.

Has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps you are feeling the empty nest syndrome? You cannot control your sons actions anymore, especially long distance. Once an adult child is out on their own, they are their own boss in the present & future. To make demands, will only backfire eventually.
 
My grandchildren live only about 25 miles from me, but because of a bad relationship with my daughter in law, they might as well be hundreds of miles away. I am lucky that my son does bring them to see me three or four times a year.

It's sometimes very difficult for the paternal grandparents to be close to their grandchildren. It really all depends on the Mother.. If she chooses to allow it or not. From experience and from talking to many other paternals... this is really not usually the case, and preference and access to the children is generally given to the wife's parents and the husbands parents left out of the picture.

NO.. it's not fair.. and it's very painful, but it is what it is. I understand your pain and frustration Bob and I feel your pain.. Unless you have been through it Gemma... your words are meaningless, and it sounds to me that you have all girls... lucky YOU...
 
I wholeheartedly agree that our weekly Facetimes do not make up for hugs, kisses and cuddles. So we make the 10 hour drive (one-way) about every 8-10 weeks. Our son is divorced and has the children a full 50% of the time. I will tell you, now that he doesn't have to consider their mother in any of his decisions and we don't have to deal with her, we have so much more access and are so much closer with him and his 3. I'm sorry I don't have any suggestions for you. I'm assuming you are leaving the granddaughter out of your invitation because she's still so little? I think you'd be cutting yourself short not to include her, the earlier you bond the better. And I can see their mom not going for it because you are taking them out of the country and if they are already talking divorce, she's probably got all kinds of fears about what could happen. Even if it isn't realistic.
 
Bob, if your DIL is a narcissist, reasonable behaviour on her part is not part of the picture. I don't see any harm in your ultimatum at this point. Who knows, your son may start to stand up for himself. In my experience, when toxic marriages

unravel, sometimes grandparents become a touchstone. You may find that your son's attitude does a turnabout should that occur. Regardless, I think your DIL has held you and your wife's emotions hostage long enough.
 
Gemma, relationships are complex, familial ones more so. They involve give and take, compromise, all the good stuff, in order to flourish. However, that system only works if everyone plays on the same team. In this instance, the Queen Bee is running

the show, stinging other participants at her whim. It is a toxic situation. It is in no way helpful to anyone involved, if the grandparents continually give in, believing that somehow the situation will rectify itself. In all my years as a therapissed, I have never met a narcissist who willingly shared power with anyone.
 
Gemma said:
IMO, you gave him an ultimatum. You will pay for just your son & grandson to visit. I can completely understand when your son tells you that his wife would never go for it. You are alienating your DIL & granddaughter, by only inviting your son & grandson to the states.

Do what's right....For whom...you and your wife? Sounds selfish to me.

Doesn't the Bible state that a man shall leave his mother & father, and shall cleave onto his wife?

They are a young married couple with two small children, trying to make a life of their own. I'd say, he is trying to be a man, a father and doing what is right for his family.

Has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps you are feeling the empty nest syndrome? You cannot control your sons actions anymore, especially long distance. Once an adult child is out on their own, they are their own boss in the present & future. To make demands, will only backfire eventually.
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Thanks for your thoughts, but you're off base in reading the situation. Perhaps I didn't do a good job explaining it. We've been over there three times since our grandchildren were born. The goal in proposing that my son and his son visit is to make the best of a bad situation. We've done all we can to build a relationship with our son's wife, but she's got serious emotional and psychological issues that will probably always present an obstacle to seeing our grandchildren. We feel it's critical that they get to know us, because the reality is that our son is never moving back to the states. We've made our peace with that. At the same time it's been five years since our son came home. At this stage in our lives, it's not reasonable to expect us to bear the expense or the stress of of what turns out to be about a 24 hour trip to get there (factoring in all aspects of the trip), on top of dealing with our daughter-in-law. Our intention was to have our granddaughter visit with our son next year, when she's old enough to appreciate the visit. We realize that were our son to propose to our DIL that he bring both kids, that would be a non-starter (she's suggested many times that she believes he'll run off to the States with them one day, she's that twisted and paranoid.)

With respect to your comment about empty next syndrome, nothing could be further from the truth. We were thrilled when he moved out. Our soul purpose here is to build a face to face relationship with our grandchildren. I can't control my son's actions, but I can certainly try to influence them. Without understanding the dynamics here, it would be difficult for you to properly assess the situation. One of the underlying goals in my trying to force the issue is to get our son to stand up to the woman who bullies, manipulates and generally makes his life miserable, keeping in mind their stated intention to divorce in a few years.

As for the Bible. I don't look to it for my teaching or path in life.

I guess my feeling ultimately comes down to trying to force the issue with my son, so that we have a chance to see our grandchildren. If I do nothing, I'll never get to see them unless I go over there and be forced to spend time with the DIL. We had originally suggested coming over and staying nearby, to which our DIL said she didn't want our son driving both kids. Do you see the dilemma now?
 
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CoMoJayne said:
I wholeheartedly agree that our weekly Facetimes do not make up for hugs, kisses and cuddles. So we make the 10 hour drive (one-way) about every 8-10 weeks. Our son is divorced and has the children a full 50% of the time. I will tell you, now that he doesn't have to consider their mother in any of his decisions and we don't have to deal with her, we have so much more access and are so much closer with him and his 3. I'm sorry I don't have any suggestions for you. I'm assuming you are leaving the granddaughter out of your invitation because she's still so little? I think you'd be cutting yourself short not to include her, the earlier you bond the better. And I can see their mom not going for it because you are taking them out of the country and if they are already talking divorce, she's probably got all kinds of fears about what could happen. Even if it isn't realistic.
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Thanks for your thoughts here. See my earlier reply to Gemma about why our granddaughter wasn't included in this year's invitation.
 
I firmly believe that some young women use the "leave and Cleave" verse of the Bible to mean that their husband must completely abandon his parents in favor of her and her family. So many times this verse is used to support the alienation of a man from his bio-family. But the Bible also says to honor your father and your mother.. That includes BOTH sets. I believe children benefit from exposure to both sides of their heritage and this should be encouraged, not discouraged or made next to impossible.
 
Shalimar said:
Bob, if your DIL is a narcissist, reasonable behaviour on her part is not part of the picture. I don't see any harm in your ultimatum at this point. Who knows, your son may start to stand up for himself. In my experience, when toxic marriages

unravel, sometimes grandparents become a touchstone. You may find that your son's attitude does a turnabout should that occur. Regardless, I think your DIL has held you and your wife's emotions hostage long enough.
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Appreciate your thoughts here and the support. I have separately sent our son a detailed list of items that he could use to help him convince the wife about the practicality of our proposal. We'll see what happens. Just trying to make the best of a really messy situation. Sadly, there are no easy answers here.
 
Shalimar said:
Gemma, relationships are complex, familial ones more so. They involve give and take, compromise, all the good stuff, in order to flourish. However, that system only works if everyone plays on the same team. In this instance, the Queen Bee is running

the show, stinging other participants at her whim. It is a toxic situation. It is in no way helpful to anyone involved, if the grandparents continually give in, believing that somehow the situation will rectify itself. In all my years as a therapissed, I have never met a narcissist who willingly shared power with anyone.
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Thank you, Shalimar, for sharing your thoughts/opinion on family relationships. Your actually not telling me anything that I don't already know. Having adult children and grandchildren of my own, I do not find complexity at all. I respect that they are adults, have their own lives to live and need to raise their own children the way they see fit. Unless they ask for my input, I stay out of their business.

The problem with labels (narcissist, as you labeled her) is they are merely shells that contain assumptions. When we are taken in by a label, we are taken in by opinions and beliefs. That is, we willingly accept statements without evidence of their validity. If you never met this woman, how can you label her?
 
Although I am to some extent guesstimating, during my career as a psychotherapist/psychologist, I have met many
people, men and women who exhibit the symptoms Bob described re his DIL. Invariably they pointed toward some type of personality disorder, usually narcissism. Bolstered by Bob's statements regarding his opinion of my analysis of this woman's behaviour, and likely underlying pathology, I am comfortable with my position. With respect, since you have ever met this woman, and as far as I know aren't a mental health professional, how can you be certain the label is invalid?
 
Bob, I have a very similar situation. As hard as it is and how much it hurts you need to let it go and give yourselves peace. It won't change unless the daughter-in-law is out of the picture. It is terribly sad how one person can make so many others miserable and deny her own children their right to have and enjoy family member in their lives.
 
nitelite said:
Bob, I have a very similar situation. As hard as it is and how much it hurts you need to let it go and give yourselves peace. It won't change unless the daughter-in-law is out of the picture. It is terribly sad how one person can make so many others miserable and deny her own children their right to have and enjoy family member in their lives.
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Thanks for your thoughts here and I can understand the sentiment. Sorry to hear that you're going through the similar issues. While our daughter-in-law isn't preventing our being able to see the kids (sorry if I gave that impression), she has made it pretty clear she wants nothing to do with us. That puts us in a difficult position. Yes, we could go over there to visit, but the reality is such that she will have put up barriers that would make the trip less than fun. In offering our son the opportunity to come here with the oldest child, I thought that was a good compromise and one that we're hoping will be more palatable to our DIL compared to our coming there. I wouldn't even mind going there if she would let our son bring the kids to us, but that also raises problems in terms of getting around since I won't drive in England. We have even talked about renting a place over there in the summer when the kids are on break from school, but won't do that unless we're on better terms with our DIL.
 
I have simply found it easier to simply not care so much.. I got tired of it eating me alive so I stopped... It's unfortunate to say, but I really have a minimal amount invested in the GKs now.. It's sad, but it's come to that. Guess my "grandmother gene" withered on the vine from neglect. It's hard to stay connected and interested if you are not allowed much contact and are not involved in their daily lives. I find there is little to talk about on their infrequent visits. Everyone has lost out... all because of an insecure juvenile young woman.
 
QuickSilver said:
I have simply found it easier to simply not care so much.. I got tired of it eating me alive so I stopped... It's unfortunate to say, but I really have a minimal amount invested in the GKs now.. It's sad, but it's come to that. Guess my "grandmother gene" withered on the vine from neglect. It's hard to stay connected and interested if you are not allowed much contact and are not involved in their daily lives. I find there is little to talk about on their infrequent visits. Everyone has lost out... all because of an insecure juvenile young woman.
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That's really sad to hear QS. I shared this reply with my wife who said in response "I can't let that happen." I totally get the sentiment though, as this period has been difficult for my wife (less so for me). She's going to fight as hard as she can to make sure she has a relationship with the GKs. But I also know that emotionally it's wearing her down. There have been tears over the situation and there are sadly no easy answers here, which is why I'm appreciative of the suggestions and support found in this online community.
 
Well, I've found in my life that sometimes you just have to accept what "is" to save your own stomach lining and mental health. I've also found that forcing relationships or trying to force them never works and sometimes only causes the other party to become more entrenched.

I certainly don't intend any criticism of anyone involved in your sad situation, but you don't want to push so hard that you become estranged from your son. My sister made this mistake and is now pretty much irretrievably estranged from that side of the family, and has been for about 15 years.
 
Butterfly said:
Well, I've found in my life that sometimes you just have to accept what "is" to save your own stomach lining and mental health. I've also found that forcing relationships or trying to force them never works and sometimes only causes the other party to become more entrenched.

I certainly don't intend any criticism of anyone involved in your sad situation, but you don't want to push so hard that you become estranged from your son. My sister made this mistake and is now pretty much irretrievably estranged from that side of the family, and has been for about 15 years.
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I agree... and that's why I disinvested myself. Why spend what's left of my life pining for what I don't have, when I do have a lot to be thankful for. You just can't be sad all the time can you? It's hard to live that way and I have refused to do so. I have what I think is a good relationship with my son. Of course it's not the same as having a daughter.. We speak on the phone or text.. but not every day... and not even every week.. But he contacted me last week and asked if we would be home this Sunday so he can bring the kids over. My older son is going to visit too so he can see his brother and his niece and nephews.. We probably will go out to dinner.. I know how it will go.. I will ask the kids about what's going on with them.. They will say "nothing"... I will ask about school.... they will say.. "it's ok"... I will ask all the usual things and they will give one word answers and go back to their video games. I'll run out of things to say, and I'll check in here... It is what it is.
 

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