Have difficulty believing the Bible.

well, thanks for the discussion.

I am done...don't want to dwell on this topic endlessly.

I guess I have really come to the point in life that I no longer really believe that anyone changes their ideas. Except in rare circumstances.

So, not really sure what the point of debate really is, to tell the truth.

I guess, the bottom line is that I am just doing this to engage in conversation, rather than to really discuss the ideas. Because, again, I don't think atheists start to believe. And I don't think believers turn into atheists.

I think we really just stay with where we are...with a few rare exceptions.
 

Em in Ohio said:
I was faced with a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario in the Catholic church. As a child, we were told to repeat "I believe in God, the Father Almighty,..." Since I didn't believe, I refused. Well, okay. If I lied and repeated this mantra, I was sinning and would go to hell (or to Confession, the easy out). If I didn't repeat it, I was hell-bound for not believing.

After a meeting with a Monsignor, it was mutually decided that I wasn't good Catholic material and that I would burn in hell. My Catholic relatives already told me that my father was going to burn in hell because he didn't believe.

If a man with my father's natural morality and high ethical standards was going to be sent to eternal hell, while the "good Catholic" hypocrites flourished in heaven, this god was either a work of fiction or a totally-off-his-rocker sadist.

I was withdrawn (banned) from "Confirmation classes."
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Em I will admit, being a non-practicing Catholic, I laughed at the absurdity involving ridiculous and very outdated and old-fashioned practices by the church. It still blows my mind that a monsignor was actually so ignorant and did not comprehend his wrongfulness in declaring anyone will go to hell...
 
oldaunt said:
Before your brain implodes, please note I did NOT say THOSE people were insane, just that history has noted there were some who were. As for the rest, no I wouldn't be upset by your suggestion, since I can use my common sense pretty well and decide for myself. Please think about why you consider truth to be "nasty", especially when you misunderstood the statement, being all defensive and such.....
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I said that I felt your comment was rude...and instead of you, you know, saying something like..."oh, sorry, did not mean to offend you..."

You kept going with more criticism about me.

Absolutely not interested in that.
 

JonSR77 said:
well, thanks for the discussion.

I am done...don't want to dwell on this topic endlessly.

I guess I have really come to the point in life that I no longer really believe that anyone changes their ideas. Except in rare circumstances.

So, not really sure what the point of debate really is, to tell the truth.

I guess, the bottom line is that I am just doing this to engage in conversation, rather than to really discuss the ideas. Because, again, I don't think atheists start to believe. And I don't think believers turn into atheists.

I think we really just stay with where we are...with a few rare exceptions.
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Interesting..I feel people do change their minds :unsure: but I come here not so much to change anyone's mind but to hear what others believe...that in some cases helps me change my mind on some issues..
 
JonSR77 said:
well, thanks for the discussion.

I am done...don't want to dwell on this topic endlessly.

I guess I have really come to the point in life that I no longer really believe that anyone changes their ideas. Except in rare circumstances.

So, not really sure what the point of debate really is, to tell the truth.

I guess, the bottom line is that I am just doing this to engage in conversation, rather than to really discuss the ideas. Because, again, I don't think atheists start to believe. And I don't think believers turn into atheists.

I think we really just stay with where we are...with a few rare exceptions.
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Wrong again. I USE to be very much a believer, til I was about 45 or so.
 
Lavinia said:
The issue of birth control is a complete misunderstanding. The early Church was established by men who thought sexual intercourse should only be indulged in when a couple wanted to conceive a child. Their problem lies in people having sex at other times. It's not contraception which the Church objects to, it's having sex which doesn't lead to pregnancy. If people actually thought about it, they would realise that themselves.
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Yet today I would think the Catholic Church could relax its position on birth control. I understand their stance on abortion, but the world is populated enough so why not allow or even promote birth control? Science has proven sex is physically healthy and so the conception goal only should be lifted..maybe it has been?? LOL I do not really keep up with the Church teachings anymore..and what about those who can not have children..or the older people like us..are we to give up sex because we can no longer have children :unsure: :confused:
 
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Life as I understand it to be has been conflictual since it began. On one hand the illusive similarities of authority dad behind the pulpit and God likewise unreachable authoritarian I must obey according to the word.
I know enough about the Bible to choose it is not for me and the same is true about Christianity. Faith is not an option for believing.
 
JonSR77 said:
Well, respectfully, saying "there is no proof" is an assertion. It is, in itself, a theory.
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JonSR77 said:
There is no formalized proof that that assertion is true. There are many people who do believe there is proof.
There is an enormous amount of proof out there.
Many Nobel Prize winners in science also believe...
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No formalized proof exists. That many people believe there is proof is not proof. It's belief. There is no enormous amount of proof. There is none. I think what you are referring to is evidence. Evidence does not meet the standard of proof. But it can be convincing to many, which is why many innocent people have been convicted and even executed.

OK, I'm being nit-picky. But formalized proof in formal logic is nit-picky. Formal logic has to be. Logic weeds out the leaps of logic and gaps in our thinking. If there was proof that God exists, it would provide information that is transferable and wipe out areas of disagreement between reasonable people. But God is a personal thing, one person's god is not another persons god, and not everyone has one.

Maybe there IS a god. Who can say? Well lots of people say there is based on faith. Faith can be powerful and convincing, but it is only faith.
 
From Porgy and Bess:

It ain't necessarily so
It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so

Little David was small but oh my
David was small but oh my
He shot Goliath
Who lay down and dieth
Little David was small but oh my

Old Jonah he lived in a whale
Old Jonah he lived in a whale
He made his home in that fish's abdomen
Old Jonah he lived in a whale

… Moses was found in a stream
Moses was found in a stream
Floated on water till old Pharoah's daughter
She fished him (she says) from that stream

They tell all your children
The devil's a villain
Live clean, don't have no fault,
Now I takes dat Gospel whenever it's poss'ble
But with a grain of salt

Methuslah lived 9 hundred years
Methuslah lived 9 hundred years
But who calls dat livin'
When no gal will give in
To no man what's 9 hundred years?

I'm preachin' this sermon to show
It ain't necessa, ain't necessa, ain't necessa, ain't necessa,
Ain't neccesarily so!
 
JonSR77 said:
Well, of course, you now realize that the entirety of the religious history of the world, can hardly be summed up by the rumors that the kids were passing along at school.

My wife works for a major Catholic University. And, oh yes, we hear all the criticisms of the Church. Corruption, pedophilia.

And we ourselves hate and want to end the problems. One of Laurie's best friends was a nun who fought against anti-Semitism in the Church...and, in fact, won significant victories.

Every major institution is composed of people. And people are flawed.

Does that mean that the Christian teachings of kindness are not true.

For every one story about pedophilia and corruption there are 1000 priests and nuns, going into the Third World, at great risk to themselves, to bring food and medical care to the poor and desperate.

But, do those stories get covered as much as the corruptions? Of course not, because it is boring to always hear stories about how wonderful priests and nuns can be.

Anyone who thinks that the Church, or other religions for that matter, are one long history of corruption, is absolutely living in a cartoon, entirely divorced from reality.

The secular historians, absolutely confirm that the single major civilizing force in the development of modern society has been the force of religion. It ended the Roman gladiator games. The moral codes became the laws that forbade murders, rapes, theft and etc.

Over the course of human history the Church's influence has prevented millions of murders and other serious crimes.

But, how many stories about that? Actually, I have never seen even one.
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I'm sorry you didn't enjoy my story. I didn't mean it to be a profound insight into religions of the world, nor did I expect it would necessitate a defense. It was just an anecdote about kids, an opinionated grandmother, and a playful poke at religion, as well as the idiosyncrasies of humans.
 
A lot of Christians profess to love Jesus but also hate others because the old testament said so, but they sure don't follow everything the old testament says. They just choose some of the old testament to believe. Bunch of hypocrites!
 
JonSR77 said:
That is just some stuff that got passed around. There is much known about the history of that time.

You are ascribing concepts about imagination and thought and ideas...they all come from a much more modern era.

People did not think like that at the time. And they had a lot of mystical ideas. They believed in portents and omens and spells.
And those ideas were in their heads.
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Relating to the bible that man wrote how do you explain the story about Adam & Eve, then later Noah if not borne of imagination? For me I would classify those as being mystical ideas.

I agree. Ideas about how mankind began IMO was no different then, than when Jules Verne wrote 20,000 leagues under the sea. At that time it was fantasy & a way to describe the unknown. Now traveling under the sea is common.
 
JonSR77 said:
I have met hundreds of priests and nuns. A couple of them were cold-hearted jerks. But, in my own personal experience, I would say over 95% were not just nice normal folks...but over 95% were incredibly nice people.
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My closest friends for the past 9 years are fundamentalist Christians, a husband and wife, so yes there are good people that are religious, and some that are very smart. I went hiking with my friend's wife this morning (the husband is infirm). We often hike and enjoy the woods together, but religion or lack thereof just remains a personal matter in the background.

But pointing out good Christians or good atheists doesn't really disqualify any arguments here, unless someone has said that all Christians are stupid, or all atheists are angry. Then exceptions to the rule can be cited and used to clarify that generalizations are often flawed.
 
JonSR77 said:
I don't think atheists start to believe. And I don't think believers turn into atheists.
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It does happen both ways. I can't find statistics like percentages of either group that had converted. But when I googled that, there were many more anecdotal accounts of this or that atheist or theist that had converted. Anecdotes don't really tell us much, but they do tell us that people change. Over the years in talking with other atheists, I get the impression that a lot were former theists. I'd take a stab and say 30 to 50%, but I don't know that my sampling is representative of the whole, and of course many theists say they were atheists at one time. But none of this answers the critical question, "Is there a god?" And that is most important, because religions depend on it. While for atheists and agnostics, knowing that would totally change most atheists' orientation toward belief. It's an important question, at least to me when I was younger.
 
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