Have you ever wondered what if for some major historical events?

Vivjen

Vivjen

Senior Member
Location
UK
No, I am not being personal here, but as I get older, I am finding myself more and more interested in history; both my own family history, and general history.

I have a book entitled 'What if' depicting different scenarios for some major historical events, and today I picked up a magazine with another what if in.

What if....the Pilgrims hadn't gone to America?

The auther's conclusion is that the US's main language becomes Spanish, and UK and US never develop their 'special relationship.'

Any thoughts?
 

Because the PilgrimFathers never landed; the Spanish begin to colonise large parts of North America; introduce the Inquisition; religious intolerance ensues, and the US becomes Spanish and Catholic.

Interesting theory?
 
Dutch were there, New Amesterdam became New York....but the Spanish would have beaten them.......earlier!
 

That is also true...Pilgrims invited them to Thanksgiving, after their first winter and harvest.

So you start a different what if!
 
Warrigal said:
If you hadn't had your war of independence then Australians would be speaking French.
Click to expand...

I find this kind of stuff fascinating; imagine if he had transported our convicts to South Africa?
we tried, but the SAs wouldn't let the ships dock ; so they came to you!
 
The US Coast Guard intercepted a small rowboat with 4 Mexicans on board trying to land on shore.

The CG captain hailed the rowboat and asked where they were going.

One of the Mexicans yelled back, "We're going to overtake the United States!"

The CG laughed and asked, "What; just the four of you?"

"No", he replied, "Were the last four. The rest of us are already here."
 
I have wondered that question. Then I saw a program on Nova... The Fabric of the Cosmos. In an episode they discuss the theory that there is not one universe, but an endless number of 'multiverse'. If that is so, then life could play out (in another universe) all those what if's.
 
i_am_Lois said:
I have wondered that question. Then I saw a program on Nova... The Fabric of the Cosmos. In an episode they discuss the theory that there is not one universe, but an endless number of 'multiverse'. If that is so, then life could play out (in another universe) all those what if's.
Click to expand...

Things could now get quite complex. Just remember Lois, it is getting towards 9.00 pm here, and my brain may get tired!

So, if there are infinite universes, then the US could be Spanish, Dutch, Native American....the possibilities are endless.

Phil, help!
 
I find this kind of stuff fascinating; imagine if he had transported our convicts to South Africa?
we tried, but the SAs wouldn't let the ships dock ; so they came to you!
Click to expand...

We weren't termed 'The Lucky Country' for nothing then.

Should I be embarrassed that I'm very glad we were pioneered by convicts rather than by the Biblically obsessed?
I doubt the 2nd Fleet would have found more than bones here if they had all sat about and prayed for mana and water in Botany Bay instead of setting out to go feral and scratch what they could where they could and find Sydney Harbour. At least it had a little creek.
I still wonder how people survive around Botany Bay

We would have been a different culture too. Less 'close to the Earth' pragmatic, less ironic, less adaptable to and accepting of far harder conditions than the Pilgrims found.
No fat turkeys around Botany Bay. Not even ground fit to grow a crop of anything in. The native Australians' idea of a feast was a possum on the campfire next to the singed Wallaby. They really couldn't afford to accommodate guests. Our 'culture' started out with a less 'trusting in God' and more 'giving the Devil his due' and every man for himself attitude and I doubt anything less would have gotten them through that first year.

We're anything but ashamed of our convict start. They were the toughest of the tough and that's exactly what it took to survive and settle OZ in those first few decades.
Prayers and high ethics wouldn't have done the job believe me.
One of our first historical 'bad guys' was the Reverend Marsden who preached with a cat-o-ninetails rather than any particular convicts.
Funny that. No wonder we're a bit strange.

I shake my head when the Kooris call the anniversary of our landing here 'Invasion Day.' It was more like 'Castaway Day.' If they consider a few hundred shackled starving convicts an invasion force then they were obviously in dire need of some military nous.
 
The pilgrim Fathers, to give them thir due; did practise religious tolerance, and made friends with the natives; good job, or else they would all have starved.
It was those that came after that started the 'invasion' bit; a little like the Boers in South Africa.

Pioneers seem to be rough, tough, fair, all-in-together people. It tends to be the ones that follow, band-wagon jumpers?
 
Vivjen said:
Things could now get quite complex. Just remember Lois, it is getting towards 9.00 pm here, and my brain may get tired!

So, if there are infinite universes, then the US could be Spanish, Dutch, Native American....the possibilities are endless.

Phil, help!
Click to expand...
Yes Vivjen. And in one of those universes the big explosion never happened and the dinosaurs still rule the earth.
 
Fine by me! It is a fascinating concept though, don't you think?
infinite possibilities.
 
I shake my head when the Kooris call the anniversary of our landing here 'Invasion Day.' It was more like 'Castaway Day.' If they consider a few hundred shackled starving convicts an invasion force then they were obviously in dire need of some military nous.
Click to expand...
That's the most succinct argument I've ever heard to counter the Invasion Day argument.

However, what happened later might give rise to the tag Contagion Day because as the Europeans spread out from Sydney Cove they brought with them diseases and attitudes to land ownership that proved deadly to the original inhabitants.
 
That wasn't exclusive to the Kooris Warri. It happened to many native populations coming into contact with we European germ bags. The Sth Americans, the North Americans, the Hawaiians, many S.Pacific islanders. We didnt invent bacterial infections, but we had a better chance to develop immunity. That was the luck of nature not malevolent intent. (Except in a few cases when it was used as a weapon to wipe out locals of course, but again, 'we' didn't do that, it was done by individual bastards. )

The land title attitudes were 'normal' to us too. That the Koories, and other cultures, had been left out of the loop was nobody's fault, just tough luck.
 
Actually, Americans would be speaking French, not Spanish. In the early 1700's
the English were fighting the French in Quebec I believe for control of Canada and America.
The English won victoriously in a key battle and the French surrendered. The English took control
of Canada and America for at least 35 or 40 years until the American Rev. War in 1775-76.
The French were already out west trapping and settling down. The Dutch were much earlier
and mostly in New York. The Spanish were in Florida.
 
Amethyst1 said:
Actually, Americans would be speaking French, not Spanish. In the early 1700's
the English were fighting the French in Quebec I believe for control of Canada and America.
The English won victoriously in a key battle and the French surrendered. The English took control
of Canada and America for at least 35 or 40 years until the American Rev. War in 1775-76.
The French were already out west trapping and settling down. The Dutch were much earlier
and mostly in New York. The Spanish were in Florida.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but that is assuming a different what if!
my what if is assuming the Pilgrim Fathers never landed, so the Spanish hadd 100 years to get up the East Coast if they wanted to.
so your answer is the what if for a later event......the combinations are endless!
 
Alternate universes are a favorite plot device for science fiction writers, and it's an interesting "what if" to play. If, as has been conjectured, these universes co-exist, then there might be a "doorway" between them (black holes? wormholes?) that would eventually allow us to travel back and forth.

Re: the Spanish invasion ... I wonder if the Native Americans would have fared any better with them than with the Pilgrims. One of Columbus's first actions upon landing in Hispaniola was to start taking slaves, both for export and for personal use, and then the forced gold-digging. The mass murders followed not long after.

The Spanish cut a wide swath of death making their way up the Gulf coast of Florida in their search for gold, so I think the end result would probably have been the same - the elimination of a people.
 
I doubt it Phil.....just swapping one set of barbaric foreign invaders with another.....
 
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