How much do we owe each other ?

horseless carriage said:
Trying to avoid a political answer. The UK's National Health Service, although currently wobbly due to covid, is not the be all and end all that others might see. It comes at a high cost, but it is free at the point of delivery.

How high a cost? Our income tax system is tiered so that the more you earn the more you pay, at the other end of the scale everyone can earn £12,570 per annum before they start paying income tax.

A second deduction is made from everyone's salary and it's known as N.I. it means: National Insurance, and that amount is 12% of income, payable from the very first penny earned, no allowance like income tax.

Are you with me so far? On top of the employee's 12%, every employer pays double that, for everyone that they employ. To put that into figures lets suggest that you are earning £25,000 a year. You will pay about £2500 (£2486 to be precise) in income tax, that's because you are allowed £12,570 before you pay anything, then you pay 20% tax on the remainder.

But you are going to pay a further 12% of your £25,000 in N.I. That equals £3,000. Furthermore, your employer will pay, £6,000. that's a total of £9,000. Remember, employers have to budget for their N.I. contribution, so if they didn't have to pay it, you would earn £31,000 instead of £25,000.

You pay no N.I. when you reach the retirement age of 66, but if you continue to work, your employer is still liable for the employer's rate.
There is a sweetener though, out of the N.I. kitty, not only is the cost of your health care removed, it also pays sick pay and state pensions. We Brits have lived with the system since 1948, we can, if we wish, still pay private health care, but N.I. will still be conducted.

National health is not second class compared to private, even royalty have been referred to a national health hospital. It's a system most of us have grown up with, we know no other.
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The U.S. pays about twice what you pay in the U.K., yet we have a lower life expectancy.

If you've ever been hospitalized in the U.S., you know what happens. Even before you leave the hospital, you start getting hounded for payments, even though you have insurance. And then the bills start rolling in, even though you have insurance. The insurance company might not think you're worth certain expensive treatments, so you have to fight them for that.

Our system sucks. But we can't have a system like you have in the U.K. because that's socialism!
 

I think social behavior of "what we owe to each other " should include tolerance and giving to each other
in a way that brings satisfaction and enjoyment to both or all parties.
and a gain of energy and joy from the interaction., so it would be a give and take for mutual benefit.
However, If ill-humored remarks cause tension from small minds or limited vision
or from those who fail to scope the entire view, tension can result.
Understanding and seeing the whole situation in it's true perspective, a helping and a giving
of oneself when possible is needed .Your evolution is helped by bringing forth the quality of love.
We do owe to our fellow beings so the behavior becomes a means of adding peace, harmony and love
to the surroundings and to each other.
The entire atmosphere then has the influence of love, kindness, a freshness of harmony and peace.
 
Remy said:
I know. I have heard many times how people were let out of the mental institutions. With little resource. We have homeless in my town and they now think they are going to be moving them all to this area with these tiny, tiny houses that are being built. Will see how that plays out.

But there are people like me who work and with the price increases after the fires due to demand and insurance payouts, it's ridiculous what they are getting for old mobile homes. If they would start a new park, that would push those prices back down. And I'd be willing to wait for a new place. As long as they allowed smaller ones. Nothing for those in the middle. Just expensive houses and apartments that take your rent money.
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A lot of people are leaving California. My daughter recently departed Santa Rosa for Boise Idaho, and a couple of relatives have moved to Texas. A few years ago Texas housing was unbelievably cheap, but Californians have driven prices up -- still cheap, but not what it once was. Californians moving either place are well advised before the move to re-register their car in the state of destination. When pressed, best to say you're from northern California -- they really have it in for southern Californians.
 

fuzzybuddy said:
hollydolly posted a thread about a drug addled, trash strewn street in Phily. It's a street almost all cities have. To clean up the trash, and rehabilitate the people would take many billions at the barest minimum. And that brings up the question- How much do we owe one another?
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Hmmm. How do you rehabilitate people with money? How much money do you give a drug addict to stop taking drugs? Nearly half of the population of Detroit is functionally illiterate, meaning they can't read much more than a stop sign, if that. If we poured money into the public schools of Detroit would it make much of a difference? I doubt it. The bank I worked for hired a woman to work in a department furnishing supplies to branches. I know the woman who attempted very hard to train her, but despite her best efforts she was not able to get accross the difference between $5,000 and $500,000, let alone $5,000,000. The woman went to lunch and never came back. How much money would it take to solve that problem, let alone turn her into a programmer or systems analyst?
 
ElCastor said:
A lot of people are leaving California. My daughter recently departed Santa Rosa for Boise Idaho, and a couple of relatives have moved to Texas. A few years ago Texas housing was unbelievably cheap, but Californians have driven prices up -- still cheap, but not what it once was. Californians moving either place are well advised before the move to re-register their car in the state of destination. When pressed, best to say you're from northern California -- they really have it in for southern Californians.
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When I lived in Washington state it was similar. And they blamed Californian's for real estate and rent increases. I don't blame anyone for leaving.
 
hollydolly said:
same here in the UK ..all but disappeared except for institutions for the criminally insane...

My mother was a psycho geriatric nurse when I was a kid, there was many mental hospitals as they were called then..in our city... and people could go for short periods or long depending on the severity of their mental health... now it's called ''Care in the Community'' and those who would have been looked after and often made well.. are left to fend for themselves in their homes and in the streets and the general Public are often victims of their actions...
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Similar approach and results throughout the U.S.
A couple of examples:
https://discover.hubpages.com/politics/Housing-Programs-Helpful-or-Harmful
https://westfaironline.com/98610/roberts-report-housing-addiction-society-decline/
 
Murrmurr said:
There was a guy in L.A. a few years ago; a Gulf War vet who built hundreds of tiny homes for people on the street. People donated cash, and he and a handful of friends built them, and gave them to dozens of homeless folks. He placed them on land that was either public and remote, or donated by private parties.

Within 6 months, city officials ordered police to throw the people out so they could haul away their tiny homes and destroy them.
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Why?
 
Pepper said:
Why?
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The guy said the city wouldn't tell him why. Then a whole bunch of people, including ones who donated money, demanded to know why and demanded the homes be returned, and generally made a big stink about it, and I think it was the mayor of L.A. who came out and made a public speech talking about the guy got the wrong permits and the issue was that his tiny homes didn't have a bathroom and kitchen, and it's not the public's job to deal with the homeless anyway and he gave everyone his promise (or hers, idk) that the city will get the homeless housed asap and get them all off drugs and get them health care and all that bs.

Then, about a week after that, something like 5 or 6 of those dozens of tiny homes were given back to the guy and he was told where he could set them up, and those ones were re-occupied. And about a year after that, the city started building tiny-home villages. They completed 2 that I know of and they all have tiny bathrooms and kitchens.

Tadaa!
 
What creates pride of community? I can tell you that it is NOT demonizing a group of people. It might be useful to consider successful efforts. In the 1960s, Baltimore was a city with a lot of problems including homelessness, urban blight, and civil unrest. A number of people deserve credit for turning things around. Key among them was the efforts by the Baltimre Orioles baseball team to encourage pride in their home town. A housing program was established in the down town area where the city sold abandoned buildings for $1 to anyone who would agree to repair, upgrade, restore them. A company was formed which would strip the insides of the buildings, leaving only the front facade keeping, of course, the famous marble front steps. There were failures, of course, but block by block the whole down town area became more livable and attractive. The city started a program to place flower baskets on the light poles in the down town area. Little by little merchants returned to the inner harbor area and public spaces were created around what were previously abandoned warehouses and factories. I still remember the smell of the McCormick Spice company that permeated the inner harbor area. Walking trails were established around historic landmarks and I'm sure that I walked most of them with a local scout troop, gaining a personal appreciation for the Baltimore rich history. I loved the ethnic restaurants and even Eastern Market where one could buy a wide variety of food including the inevitable raw bar.

What did it take? It took a group of people who concentrated on restoring their city. It took a long time and has not been without significant failures. Still, it is a far better place now than it was in the '60s. It took a community of people who decided to work together to build a place that they could be proud of.
 
hollydolly said:
nope, I'm serious!! Not to say there's no homeless, there certainly is.. but I was referring to the absolute disgraceful mess, rubbish, and literally hundreds of drug addicts all in one space...that is not to my knowledge anywhere in London anywhere near this extent.. nothing near it......
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So do you think you have less homeless or are they just spread out more?

Figuring out what to do with or about the homeless is no simple problem...
 
Alligatorob said:
So do you think you have less homeless or are they just spread out more?

Figuring out what to do with or about the homeless is no simple problem...
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It might not be simple, but it's common sense. While there are various causes of homelessness, in this area it's drugs. In my opinion the sensible approach would be to offer the individuals two options: either go into a longterm rehab program, or not be given any help at all.
It might sound cold, but many of the individuals have incomes, yet use their money for drugs and expect others to provide for their everyday needs. Now that the housing program I mentioned is widespread, individuals are given apartments with no requirements and no rules. Not only does the drug use continue, but it draws in more crime.
 
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