I am an Atheist and always have been.

Messy said:
Reminds me of what a preacher once said.


In the early 1950’s the notorious gangster Mickey Cohen attended a meeting where Billy Graham spoke. He expressed some interest, so several, including Graham and J. Edwin Orr, spoke personally with him about Christ, but he made no commitment. But later another Christian man shared the gospel with Cohen and urged him, based on Revelation 3:20, to invite Jesus into his heart. Cohen prayed with this man to receive Christ.

Cohen later attended a Billy Graham crusade, but his life after this showed no signs of change. He distanced himself from the man who had shared the gospel with him and began to hang around with his underworld cronies again. When the Christian tried to help him, Cohen complained, “You didn’t tell me that I would have to give up my work [being a gangster]! You didn’t tell me that I would have to give up my friends [other criminals]!” He had heard that there were Christian movie stars, Christian athletes, and Christian businessmen. He assumed that he could be a Christian gangster!
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There are an awful lot of people who don't display christian values whilst claiming a relationship with God. This can easily be highlighted today. It is very very clear that the primary driver of things isn't faith in a God, but is instead a grab for money and influence.

In religious terms, you can apparently you can be forgiven for anything. That includes even the most heinous acts. As long as someone is sincere, and belief is there, forgiveness is given. This seems like a "get out of jail free" card to me. Yes, the faith has to be sincere, but then that's not our decision to make, instead it's some being somewhere else. But forgiveness of the individual won't undo the horrors they may have committed. It won't compensate those who suffered through horrendous acts. It doesn't return stolen wealth, nor empty the pockets of the thieves.

I admit, I hold on to a different point of view that means there are certainly acts you can do that remove you from consideration of any kind of humanity.
 
VaughanJB said:
There are an awful lot of people who don't display christian values whilst claiming a relationship with God. This can easily be highlighted today. It is very very clear that the primary driver of things isn't faith in a God, but is instead a grab for money and influence.

In religious terms, you can apparently you can be forgiven for anything. That includes even the most heinous acts. As long as someone is sincere, and belief is there, forgiveness is given. This seems like a "get out of jail free" card to me. Yes, the faith has to be sincere, but then that's not our decision to make, instead it's some being somewhere else. But forgiveness of the individual won't undo the horrors they may have committed. It won't compensate those who suffered through horrendous acts. It doesn't return stolen wealth, nor empty the pockets of the thieves.

I admit, I hold on to a different point of view that means there are certainly acts you can do that remove you from consideration of any kind of humanity.
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If they genuinely convert I'm glad for them. There's a ministry for criminals, murderers in prison. Great. But I don't think everyone can just say oops sorry and it's fine. Hitler, some say God is unjust, because he could have said sorry on his death bed and went to heaven. That's impossible.
 
Messy said:
If they genuinely convert I'm glad for them. There's a ministry for criminals, murderers in prison. Great. But I don't think everyone can just say oops sorry and it's fine. Hitler, some say God is unjust, because he could have said sorry on his death bed and went to heaven. That's impossible.
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As I stressed, conversion has to be sincere. However, I can't accept that. To use the ridiculous example of Hitler: Hitler may have been awfully sorry for what he'd helped bring about, he might have closed his eyes for the last time fully believing in God, giving over his heart and soul. But what, exactly, would it have meant? Would millions have not died in horrible ways? Would Europe not be turn asunder? Would people not be turning against other people?

I can't think of a scenario, no matter how devout he'd become, that would allow for forgiveness on that scale.
 
VaughanJB said:
Religion is too often used as a weapon, whether it be to demean an idea, or an entire people. It is too often used as an excuse to hate on others. It is used as justification for all kinds of heinous acts. And yes, that extends to the Bible. The Old Testament is a litany of horrendous actions in the name of a God (but tends to get brushed under the carpet because hey, there was a do-over with a new covenant.) ...
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.. and so it is wherever Power rears its head and swings its deadly arms. I know where that power is today and it is not in religion. Sir.
 
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