rbtvgo
Member
- Location
- Absecon, new jersey
please explain??
I am an Atheist and always have been.
- Thread starter Bretrick
- Start date
rbtvgo
Member
- Location
- Absecon, new jersey
unfortunately the whole idea of democracy comes from God.
There is nothing that you know, nothing that you understand, nothing............that you have not received from your creator. Who created you?
Out of nowhere you arrive and have it all figured out.
I don't , but then I don't profess to. I can know no more than my teacher.
Religion is nothing more than a set of beliefs that guides people in understanding God. Those beliefs come from other humans such as yourself. There are many. Interpretations of the living word of God. All differnt. All sure that they have the right answers.
None of them do. Not one. Religion is used as a weapon. Religion is used to convince you that THIS is the way.
The sad thing in all this is that, one needs to only quiet their mind. Call to God in a prayerful spirit and wait for his response to you. That's it!
If you were ever told that you couldn't speak to God directly...........................They were wrong.
Enough said.
Phil 1:21
New Member
Apparently I'm the only one who wondered what your piano teacher did when you fell asleep playing your piano recital. (It must have been really boring!)
Bretrick
SF VIP
- Location
- Perth Western Australia
Wrong interpretation.
I attended a piano recital at the Sydney Opera House as part of a school trip. It was not my recital
Why should she explain? Your initial sentence, "Vida is angry, upset and at wits end. I wish there was one sentence. one word that could reach her. She is one of us so think carefully about how you respond.", was not only insulting (because you don't know her state of mind) but patronizing (because somehow you feel it would be YOUR words that would make a difference). There's an explanation from a casual observer.
I actually responded to your post but then deleted because others in the forum followed up with much kinder approaches. I guess I was "angry, upset and at wits end" when I initially posted it.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Erm, no. I fully respect your point of view, and I can understand how you may have arrived at it historically speaking (the first concepts of Gods, literature, etc.), but it is not a satisfying answer for me. Put simply, I don't believe that.
I didn't come "from nowhere". I am fully aware of my lineage. I am here because of a biological process that was instigated by my parents. And while that might seem rather academic, I'm sure it was fun at the time.
But I don't "have it all figured out". What I am able to do is to stand on the shoulders of great thinkers across generations who have pondered and dreamed of what and who we are as a species on this big blue ball of atoms. None of us simply wake up and know anything. Given everything we have learned as humanity, it seems bizarre to write off our more incredible aspects to some invisible being we can't truly understand.
Well, I know your teacher in this context is your God, so perhaps what you're saying is true, it's not for me to say. However, in my world humanity has been gradually chipping away at the building blocks of life throughout generations, both learning from those who came before us, and extending that knowledge. As a species, we will never stop learning. Our curiosity informs both our mistakes and our successes.
Agreed! Humans wrote and imagined all the things in your Bible (although we don't actually know who wrote the vast majority of the Bible). The Bible also codifies a method of living through rules, regulations, customs, and practices that are at the heart of us as human beings living in a society. That stuff is important. That stuff needed to be recorded somewhere, and your Bible is as good a place as any.
And yes, there are different religions with different spins on things. This essentially covers the lie that any single one of them is the true word. All of them seem to end around the point when we can't truly know unless we depart this physical world. Which, for me, is absurd. I also don't feel a need to hedge my bets. I mean, I shall die one day (hopefully not today) and I'll discover if there really is a God. On the other hand, if there isn't, it won't matter to me one bit - I'll simply have ended. My default setting is just that - I die, then I simply cease to be. I go back, as energy, to the universe.
I'm not sure that a believer such as yourself can ever truly understand why people like me exist. I do not believe in a God. So the idea that I'd sit around waiting for a response from one is preposterous. That said, I can go to a field, sit down within it, close my eyes, and listen to the great creation all around me. The swaying of crops, the buzz of insects, the light step of a field mouse running over my shoe, the wind in my hair, the sun beating down, the clouds....... All the beauty of creation is there, and while a field paints a beautiful scenario, you can do this anywhere, at any time.
What is truly wonderful is that this thing, we'll simply call it nature, both gave me life, and will then take my life and feed it back into the universe when I am done. We never go away, we simply become the earth, other creatures, and fuel for more creation.
I am reminded - for some reason - about gold. Every bit of gold you see, touch, and hold came from either a supernova or the collision of neutron stars. All of it. Before we were here, a cosmic event of massive proportions occurred and the results were thrown out into the universe via meteorites. Isn't that amazing? Think of water, our life's blood. They say that every drop of water in the River Thames is consumed 7 to 8 times before it reaches the sea! The water we have access to today was the very same water drank by the dinosaurs. Of all the wars that have ever been, cataclysms, disease, accidents and so on - of all that, we are the survivors.
There is much to try and understand, but I can't make the leap that it requires a God.
As an addendum, if it DOES require a God, then it would follow in my mind that your God would require a God. I think it's a circular argument at that point, the "he always was" is, to my mind, a flippant response that I can't imagine.
Messy
Senior Member
Disagree.
A professor at a LIBERAL Bible college was explaining the prophetic section of Daniel to his students. As he began – He said to his students, “Now, I want you to understand that the book Daniel was written long after the historical facts that it describes. It had to be written in about the 2nd Century B.C. – not in the 6th Century B.C. when Daniel lived.”
One of the students in the Bible class raised his hand and asked, “How can that be, sir, when Jesus said in Matthew 24:15 that it was written by Daniel?”
The professor was taken back a bit – and said to the student, “Young man, I know more about the book of Daniel than Jesus did.”
Many of our “so-called” Bible or religious colleges are filled with what we call “Liberal Bible Critics” who state their unbelieving opinions to their students as if they were facts. They call it “Higher Criticism.” It’s a reference to humanistic thinking. In their “human reasoning,” the amount of prophecy in this section of Daniel is just too much to believe. So their highly educated conclusion is – someone must have written it after the fact.
Amazingly, when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, in 1947, a (basically) complete manuscript of Daniel was found in the Scrolls, giving great defense to Daniel being written when it says it was (during the exile in the 6th century B.C.). But still, the critics say it’s just too much and too accurate for them to believe that it could’ve been written “By God’s Leading” as prophecy. It doesn’t make sense, so it must not be true.
You will have to decide for yourself, will God’s Word prove true in your life? Or will you join the critics because God’s Word is just too phenomenal to believe?
The angel says in Daniel 11:2,
Daniel 11:2 (NLT)
2 “Now then, I will reveal the truth to you. Three more Persian kings will reign, to be succeeded by a fourth, far richer than the others. He will use his wealth to stir up everyone to fight against the kingdom of Greece.
These are the four Persian Kings who were still to come. The fourth was Xerxes I (480 B.C.), who stirred up an army of several hundred thousand to fight against Greece. He lost very badly, and Persia never fully recovered. That battle is most likely the one that occurred between Chapters 1 and 2 of the book of Esther.
But, that’s all I have time for – now the prophecy turns to the Kingdom of Greece.
Daniel 11:3 (NLT)
3 “Then a mighty king will rise to power who will rule with great authority and accomplish everything he sets out to do
This is Alexander the Great, who, (as we have said before), was absolutely unstoppable. He had basically conquered the world by the time he was 33. Unfortunately, Daniel 11:4 says,
Daniel 11:4 (NLT)
4 But at the height of his power, his kingdom will be broken apart and divided into four parts. It will not be ruled by the king’s descendants, nor will the kingdom hold the authority it once had. For his empire will be uprooted and given to others.
At the height of his power, Alexander the Great died at 33, history says from exhaustion and alcohol abuse. When he dies (as verse 4 says), his kingdom was divided among his four generals, not his descendants (who were probably murdered). But the Kingdom of Greece never had that great power again because of the fighting among the four divided parts. It was uprooted from Alexander the great and given to his four generals.
And now we begin a long history of war between the King of the South and the King of the North, both of which came out of the four-way split of the Empire of Greece.
Daniel 11:5 (NLT)
5 “The king of the south will increase in power, but one of his own officials will become more powerful than he and will rule his (his own) kingdom with great strength.
These two kingdoms that come out of Greece will be fighting each other for what seems like forever. One of these Kingdoms was south of Israel – Egypt, and one was north of Israel – (what we know as) Syria. And both of these kingdoms (of course) are still there today. In 306 B.C., two kings who were initially aligned together split apart. One became King of the South – Egypt (Ptolemy I Soter). One became King of the North – Syria (Seleucus I Nicator), and their kingdoms began a 200-year war with the land of Israel in the middle.
Daniel 11:6 (NLT)
6 “Some years later an alliance will be formed between the king of the north and the king of the south. The daughter of the king of the south will be given in marriage to the king of the north to secure the alliance, but she will lose her influence over him, and so will her father. She will be abandoned along with her supporters.
Inter-marriage was a classic way of trying to form alliances between kingdoms. If one king’s daughter was the wife of the other king, she could influence that king on her dad’s behalf. In approximately 252 B.C, the daughter of the King of the South (Ptolemy II Philadelphus) was married to the King of the North (Antiochus II Theos).
The daughter’s name was Berenice, and the King of the North divorced his own wife to marry her. But it didn’t work. Berenice was thrown out by the King of the North, who then took back his first wife… who immediately murdered him and Berenice in revenge. (History, it’s more real drama than a reality show.)
Daniel 11:7 (NLT)
7 But when one of her (The Daughter’s) relatives becomes king of the south, he will raise an army and enter the fortress of the king of the north and defeat him.
Berenice’s brother is Ptolemy III Eurgetes, who became King of the South, and he attacked the King of the North and defeated him (approximately 250 B.C.), partly in revenge for his sister being killed.
Daniel 11:8 (NLT)
8 When he returns to Egypt, he will carry back their idols with him, along with priceless articles of gold and silver. For some years afterward he will leave the king of the north alone.
Historically, this King of the South actually erected a monument to this victory, describing all he had taken from the North.
Daniel 11:9 (NLT)
9 “Later the king of the north will invade the realm of the king of the south but will soon return to his own land
Ten years later (240 B.C.), the King of the North is Seleucus Callinicus, who tried to mount a return attack on the south, but was badly defeated.
Daniel 11:10 (NLT)
10 However, the sons of the king of the north will assemble a mighty army that will advance like a flood and carry the battle as far as the enemy’s fortress (in the south).
You see that the never-ending battle between the Kingdom of the North (Syria), and the Kingdom of the South (Egypt), is ON with the people of Israel smack dab in the middle. The King of the North is killed, but his legacy of war is carried on by his successors (his sons), and they will not let up.
The first successor is Antiochus III the Great, who assembled a huge army and took control of everything, all the way to Gaza, marching over Israel and plundering along the way, while going after the King of Egypt (South).
Daniel 11:11-12 (NLT)
11 “Then, in a rage, the king of the south will rally against the vast forces assembled by the king of the north and will defeat them.
12 After the enemy army (of the north) is swept away, the king of the south will be filled with pride and will execute many thousands of his enemies. But his success will be short lived.
In 217 B.C., Ptolemy IV Philopator (King of Egypt), came against the huge army of the North (who were in Israel) and defeated them soundly, killing many thousands of them, and creating some calm for a few years (historically).
Daniel 11:13 (NLT)
13 “A few years later the king of the north will return with a fully equipped army far greater than before. (it’s the war that never ends)
History records in the years that follow Antiochus the Great (King of Syria), turned his attention to conquering other lands to the East and increasing the strength and size of his army. But Arnold Schwarzenegger wasn’t the first one to use the phrase “I’ll be back…” because Antiochus the Great will be back to fight the Egyptian Kingdom, and he’ll come at just the right time.
Daniel 11:14 (NLT)
14 At that time (when he returns) there will be a general uprising against the king of the south. Violent men among your own people will join them in fulfillment of this vision, but they will not succeed.
In 201 B.C., Antiochus the Great (North) again attacked Egypt (South) but this time with the help of Jewish mercenaries (who are mentioned specifically by the historians).
Daniel 11:15 (NLT)
15 Then the king of the north will come and lay siege to a fortified city and capture it. The best troops of the south will not be able to stand in the face of the onslaught.
History puts this battle beginning at the area we know as Caesarea Philippi in the North of Israel, and the fortified city mention here is most probably Sidon on the coast of Northern Israel.
The battle is firmly on the land of Israel now.
Daniel 11:16 (NLT)
16 “The king of the north will march onward unopposed; none will be able to stop him. He will pause in the glorious land of Israel, intent on destroying it.
Three generals of the Egyptian army unsuccessfully tried to stop the march of the Syrian army thru Israel toward Egypt, with the Syrian army intent on destroying the land of Israel in the process. And now, with the might of victory on his side, the King of the North tries to form an alliance with the South.
Daniel 11:17 (NLT)
17 He (north) will make plans to come with the might of his entire kingdom and will form an alliance with the king of the south. He will give him (the South) a daughter in marriage in order to overthrow the kingdom from within, but his plan will fail.
The King of the North (still Antiochus the Great), tries to force an alliance with the South and gives his daughter in marriage to the King of the South (Egypt). But the King of the South is the heir, Ptolemy V Epiphanes,
who at this time is seven years old, and this planned alliance fails because the daughter of the King of the North (Cleopatra) refuses to do her father’s dirty work. But the King of the North still controls all of the land of Israel, right up to the Egyptian border.
Daniel 11:18 (NLT)
18 “After this, he will turn his attention to the coastland and conquer many cities. But a commander from another land will put an end to his insolence and cause him to retreat in shame.
At this point, Antiochus the Great (North) begins to have set-backs. This commander from another land (history tells us) is the Roman general Lucius Scipio Asiaticus, who is credited with the ultimate defeat of
Antiochus the Great. The battles “toward the coastland” were in Greece. History records then in 191 B.C. and in 189 B.C., and they were actually the beginning of Rome’s dominance. So Antiochus the Great is finally turned back.
Daniel 11:19 (NLT)
19 He (Antiochus the Great) will take refuge in his own fortresses but will stumble and fall and be seen no more.
This guy had to be attacking and defeating something. So history tells us he attacked the temple of the pagan god Bel in his own land of Elam, and he was killed trying to take plunder from the temple.
Daniel 11:20 (NLT)
20 “His successor will send out a tax collector to maintain the royal splendor. But after a very brief reign, he will die, though not from anger or in battle.
The successor to Antiochus the Great (North) was a king named Seleucus IV Philopator. Rome was now asserting its power, and the King of Syria (North) had to collect taxes for Rome, including from the land of Israel – because they controlled the land of Israel. History says this King sent a tax collector to plunder the Temple in
Jerusalem to pay taxes to Rome, and when he returned, the tax collector poisoned the King. This leads us to the most critical pre-runner to the Antichrist.
Daniel 11:21 (NLT)
21 “The next to come to power will be a despicable man who is not in line for royal succession. He will slip in when least expected and take over the kingdom by flattery and intrigue.
This is the infamous pre-runner to the Antichrist, Antiochus IV Epiphanes (remember his name), and this is exactly how this one who “fore-shadows” the Antichrist came to power. History says three rightful heirs to the throne were murdered to pave the way for Antiochus IV Epiphanes to take control.
Daniel 11:22 (NLT)
22 Before him great armies will be swept away, including a covenant prince.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes ruled the Syrian Kingdom (North) from 175 B.C. to 164 B.C. During that time, he brought great atrocities upon the Jewish people, which we will see more of, and the “Covenant Prince” is probably a reference to him murdering the High Priest in Jerusalem in 172 B.C.
Daniel 11:23 (NLT)
23 With deceitful promises, he will make various alliances. He will become strong despite having only a handful of followers.
He had some of Satan’s power of deceit and manipulation, and he used them to grow and maintain power, even though he was not a legitimate heir to the throne.
Daniel 11:24 (NLT)
24 Without warning he will enter the richest areas of the land. Then he will distribute among his followers the plunder and wealth of the rich—something his predecessors had never done. He will plot the overthrow of strongholds, but this will last for only a short while.
The richest areas of the land certainly included Israel and plunder he did. Distributing the plunder among his followers is a reference to Antiochus IV Epiphanes buying favor with his wealth in order to control the people around him. All of this he did, though he was only in power eleven years.
Daniel 11:25-26 (NLT)
25 “Then he will stir up his courage and raise a great army against the king of the south. The king of the south will go to battle with a mighty army, but to no avail, for there will be plots against him.
26 His own household will cause his downfall. His army will be swept away, and many will be killed.
For a time, because of his deceit and manipulation (in turning the household of the King of Egypt against him), Antiochus IV Epiphanes held the upper hand over Egypt. So, he forced the King of Egypt to the negotiating table.
Daniel 11:27 (NLT)
27 Seeking nothing but each other’s harm, these kings will plot against each other at the conference table, attempting to deceive each other. But it will make no difference, for the end will come at the appointed time.
The deceivers sit down at the bargaining table (and no, I’m not talking about our King and the King of Iran). I’m talking about the Kings of the North and South around 160 B.C. They conspire to deceive each other, but it will make no difference. God’s prophecy is in the process of being fulfilled while Antiochus IV Epiphanes was bringing his “hell-inspired” atrocities against the people of God.
Daniel 11:28 (NLT)
28 “The king of the north will then return home (from Egypt) with great riches. On the way he will set himself against the people of the holy covenant, doing much damage before continuing his journey.
Set against God’s people with a vengeance, just as the Anti-Christ will be. But his reign of evil doesn’t last too long.
Daniel 11:29 (NLT)
29 “Then at the appointed time he will once again invade the south, but this time the result will be different.
At God’s appointed time, this: pre-runner to the Antichrist” will come to the end of his rope, and this is the beginning.
Daniel 11:30 (NLT)
30 For warships from western coastlands will scare him off, and he will withdraw and return home. But he will vent his anger against the people of the holy covenant and reward those who forsake the covenant.
Historically, this occurred near Alexandria, Egypt, when Antiochus was met by Roman general Gaius Popillius Laenas who promised to annihilate him if he continued to attack Egypt. History records that the Roman general drew a circle around Antiochus in the dirt and demanded his answer before he stepped out of the circle.
This humiliated Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who took it out on who? On God’s people, of course. The Jews had been in the middle of this battle (literally) for over 200 years, and so in his anger and humiliation, Antiochus turned from Egypt toward Jerusalem.
Daniel 11:31 (NLT)
31 “His army will take over the Temple fortress, pollute the sanctuary, put a stop to the daily sacrifices, and set up the sacrilegious object that causes desecration.
This is the big fore-shadowing of the Antichrist. This is the first “Abomination of Desolation” which the real Antichrist will follow. He sacrifices a sow, a pig, and spreads the blood of a pig in the temple. This is the Desecrating of the Temple that occurred in the time of the Maccabees. We’ve seen this before in Daniel, and we will continue to discuss it as we go.
Daniel 11:32 (NLT)
32 He (Antiochus) will flatter and win over those who have violated the covenant. But the people who know their God will be strong and will resist him.
Some Jews were deceived by his money and manipulation, But the people who know their God will be strong and will resist him. This desecration began what is called the Maccabean Revolt, which we discussed in some detail when we studied Daniel chapter 8 in a message called “God’s Awesome Prophecy.”
Daniel 11:33 (NLT)
33 (during this time) “Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
This was a time of purging and testing for the Jews, as a “foreshadowing” of the Great Tribulation, where those who don’t join the Antichrist will meet the same fate as the wise leaders who rejected this “Little Antichrist.”
Daniel 11:34 (NLT)
34 During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes killed over 100,000 Jewish people, and those who stood up for God had to do it in hiding – just as it will be in the Great Tribulation.
And finally,
Daniel 11:35 (NLT)
35 And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.
for the appointed time is still to come!!
This was only a precursor to the Great Tribulation, the FINAL appointed time that is still to come.
We just surveyed 100 separate prophecies in 34 verses, covering almost 300 years of history. All of this can be documented by history.
God's Word Proves True
Messy
Senior Member
Google AI: Key Arguments for 6th Century BC Authorship:
Archaeological and Historical Accuracy: The text accurately names historical figures not well-known to later, non-Babylonian writers, including Belshazzar (acting as king) and the role of Nabonidus.
Linguistic Evidence: Studies of the Hebrew and Aramaic text indicate they correspond to the Imperial Aramaic used between roughly 600–330 BC, rather than the later Hebrew found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Dead Sea Scrolls: Multiple copies of Daniel (e.g., 4QDanc) found in the Dead Sea scrolls confirm its existence and authority well before the 1st century BC, contradicting theories that the book was a new 2nd-century BC creation.
Archaeological and Historical Accuracy: The text accurately names historical figures not well-known to later, non-Babylonian writers, including Belshazzar (acting as king) and the role of Nabonidus.
Linguistic Evidence: Studies of the Hebrew and Aramaic text indicate they correspond to the Imperial Aramaic used between roughly 600–330 BC, rather than the later Hebrew found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Dead Sea Scrolls: Multiple copies of Daniel (e.g., 4QDanc) found in the Dead Sea scrolls confirm its existence and authority well before the 1st century BC, contradicting theories that the book was a new 2nd-century BC creation.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
And that's perfectly fine. You believe in God, I do not. So it stands to reason you disagree with me. I've no issue with that. I've no interest in even attempting to change your mind on the matter. I can post why I don't agree, and that's about it.
I do stick to my assertion that we simply don't know who wrote the books in the Bible. We can surmise. We can follow research and come to a personal conclusion, but at this point we can never truly know. Many ideas have been offered, and more will no doubt come in the future. That the books are ancient is a given. That the books were considered important is given.
Still, the Old Testament is a minefield, imo. It is estimated that God killed around 2 million people in the OT. The use of belief in order to kill continues into modern times, and frankly it's long passed time for it to stop. But that's another topic.
I don't quite understand why you think your post would be convincing when it comes to confirming the veracity of a God, though? Perhaps I missed someones post that referenced Daniel?
JustDave
Well-known Member
This comes close:
Pantheism is the belief system that equates the universe with divinity, viewing the universe itself as a manifestation of God. This belief is not confined to a single religion and can be found in various spiritual and philosophical traditions. Although in Pantheism, the universe is God, and of course parts thereof are knowable.