I go to church with my wife

I don't think believers can explain their faith to the stage it's truly understandable to the naysayer. Once you've accepted, truly accepted, things purely on faith, there's no explaining it as such. It just is.

The reverse is also true. Unbelievers can't explain why something doesn't go to the very heart of the person, as it does within the believer, that anchors and ties to a belief in a God make no sense whatsoever to someone who just doesn't get it.

I think it's because a belief isn't solely an intellectual thing, it's largely emotional too. It becomes who you are. And it's not about who you were, and who you are. It informs on what you will some day be, and where you'll go, and brings some light into the darkness of a death which is eternal.
What a wonderfully profound post @VaughanJB

Seems nobody cares to do some study of The Bible, Christian or non Christian.

2 Peter 1:19 KJV;
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The proof is there for the earnest, prayerful study of that book

Otherwise, it's just all conjecture



 

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I was wondering what the other church members thought of you on your tablet while in church. I remember being at a Canucks hockey game and I wanted to bring my knitting.:D Hubby said no. Of course, if I really wanted to bring my knitting I would have.

I have a memory as a child. My family was going to the cinema to watch some movie. That was three kids, my mother, and my father. Back in those days there was an intermission where two ladies came out holding up a little case to sell ice-cream and snacks. Us kids greedily looked down at these ladies as the line formed in front of them. My mother then proclaimed, as she reached into her bag, that we didn't need anything, she'd brought food for us. She then pulled out a roast chicken, and proceeded to tear a leg off and hand it to my father. :D

I never went to the cinema with them every again. :D
 

Why does your wife go to Church. Is she a believer? If so, it would be like she was singing in an opera and you only went to make her happy but didn't listen to her sing, but played with your tablet the whole time. Why go?
That's one way of looking at it. I tune everything out the best I can to make the time go by. My wife is fully aware of my views of church, preacher and Christianity, She is happy I attend church with her.
 
I was wondering what the other church members thought of you on your tablet while in church. I remember being at a Canucks hockey game and I wanted to bring my knitting.:D Hubby said no. Of course, if I really wanted to bring my knitting I would have.
Member's don't seem. to mind or they haven't said anything. Either way doesn't matter.
 
Are you afraid to be an atheist @Mr. Ed? Are you afraid to doubt the existence of that which you run from?
I don't think of myself as an atheist, I don't have a religious or nonreligious label because even I don't know where or if I fit in. I don't believe in the supernatural or a faith based religioun because they are not real to me.
I have a question about atheism? Do atheist believe in the devil, heaven or hell? It seems not believing in god also should include heaven, hell good guy/ bad guy?

I don't understand enough to belong to a belief system that caters to flying monkeys or heaven and hell. Let's not forget the reason some people believe in god to be forgiven for the curse of sin and unholiness. I think god wanted to be honored and not forgotten when he to us everyone is a sinner...fortunate for you I am the only one who has the cure.
 
Are you afraid to be an atheist @Mr. Ed? Are you afraid to doubt the existence of that which you run from?

Being a non-believer isn't so simple. For example, there are people who don't believe in a God, or heaven, but still believe in some form of after-life.

I happen to not believe in an after life at all. Once I'm done, I'm done. It can be a tough thing to face. That our lives are finite, and that we just end. There is no "darkness" to overcome, there's simple nothing. It's a drastic idea. But I accept it. I'd love to live forever, but it's just not how things are.

The idea that a "father" overlooks us, cares for us, loves us - it's really comforting. But again, as a non-believer, I must face that idea that no-one cares, that I stand alone, and that the human experience can be a caring thing (immediate family) or a lone ride.

It's a mistake to imagine that being a non-believer is an easier ride. On the contrary, I think it's the toughest. I'd love to be comforted, but it's just not happening. So each and every day is what is important. Love each minute, each hour, it may be your last.
 
This has been an interesting thread. I see that there are many reasons why people attend church services, and for many, those reasons have little or nothing to do with religion, or even with a desire for a closer relationship with and better understanding of the divine consciousness we define as our Creator, the source of all truth, life, and being; our God.

Personally I don't find churches to be organized for the purpose disseminating truth, but that the driving force behind them is to grow their membership (and thereby their wealth, influence, power, etc.) through a multitude of psychological and social arguments in the form of preaching, sermonizing, evangelizing, with the carrot of love for eternity on one end of the stick, and if that doesn't work, at the other end the horrifying specter of hell to frighten you into submission.

There is little hope for any spiritual progress if there is no sincerity on the part, and in the heart, of the seeker.
 
I don't find churches to be organized for the purpose disseminating truth, but that the driving force behind them is to grow their membership (and thereby their wealth, influence, power, etc.)
Much like the Pharisees and Sadducees in the temples when Jesus was here

There is little hope for any spiritual progress if there is no sincerity on the part, and in the heart, of the seeker.
Amen
 
I go to church with my wife because it’s no fun doing things alone. She appreciates my presence and I her’s, so I take my tablet with me to occupy the time and distract me away from the sermon.
All sermons are realitivly the same, Jesus loves you, you must love Jesus and because Jesus is the son of god, you must love god because created you and you owe it to god because god loved you first, so much he gave his only begotten son so you will be saved from sin. Around and around we go with nothing but faith holding everyone hostage.
That almost sounds like one of your name the pain posts. Except for enjoying the time spent with your wife.
 
The Lord might prefer you stay home.
I have an uncle who went to church his whole life but never herad tge message. Hes a wolf in sheeps clothing. His kids are as crooked and deceitful as him. They are Christians in their heads but not in their hearts. Hypocrisy at it finest. That why Jesus got so angry at the money changers in the church before he was crucified. They used the church to pretend to do good work but were just theives and crooks.
 
He could be an agnostic. It hurts less and is more readily understood in these confusing times.
I don’t like labels, so why can’t I just be the guy on SF? I think people put too much emphasis on labels, that they fail to see the real person behind the label. If I claim to be a Christian it is automatically assumed I would act accordingly, but how does a christian act? If you examine the behaviors of christians today you would have a clear understand what christians are, only what they are said to be according to the Bible. Which I find to be propaganda in hope for a perfection that will never arrive to the diversity of humanity.
 
I don't think believers can explain their faith to the stage it's truly understandable to the naysayer. Once you've accepted, truly accepted, things purely on faith, there's no explaining it as such. It just is.

The reverse is also true. Unbelievers can't explain why something doesn't go to the very heart of the person, as it does within the believer, that anchors and ties to a belief in a God make no sense whatsoever to someone who just doesn't get it.

I think it's because a belief isn't solely an intellectual thing, it's largely emotional too. It becomes who you are. And it's not about who you were, and who you are. It informs on what you will some day be, and where you'll go, and brings some light into the darkness of a death which is eternal.
I agree. But I think one's faith has a lot to do with one's life experiences too. There are many people in the world who only have a religion, a faith, because that's how they were raised. It's embedded in their childhood experiences and they may to stick with that as adults, or seek out a new path, or reject it all as baloney.

Then there's others who have life experiences that choose them to adopt a faith belief in adulthood. So many pastors I have heard over the years say that when a person experiences sorrow and trouble in their lives, that's "God" trying to beat them with a stick until they turn to Him. Doesn't matter if it's HUMANS doing the beating and being the weapons of torture - they just blame everything on GOD. (I still remember one pastor, a famous mega-church pastor, actually saying one possible cause of the Holocaust was that God was trying to drive all those Jews to Christ. I was so young and unlearned in those days, but the more I thought about his opinion on that matter, the more my head wanted to explode.)

But darn, I see that a lot among evangelicals. They are always saying "bad is good" and saying man's evil is just God pushing people toward Him. As if every single life on the planet is waiting for a Moses to lead them across the parted Red Sea. As if we are not several hundred billion unique individuals since the dawn of man with our own unique relationships with the Universe.

Ah but that is it - the billions of souls are too much for them to comprehend with empathy, they don't even bother trying, so they whip out a Bible Story and apply a one-size-fits-all formula to all of mankind.

I do not mean to sound arrogant - I cannot comprehend hundreds of billions of souls either, not really. But that's what I resent about so many preachers - they say THEY DO comprehend everyone and then say: "Here's a Bible verse to slap on you!"
 
I don’t like labels, so why can’t I just be the guy on SF? I think people put too much emphasis on labels, that they fail to see the real person behind the label. If I claim to be a Christian it is automatically assumed I would act accordingly, but how does a christian act? If you examine the behaviors of christians today you would have a clear understand what christians are, only what they are said to be according to the Bible. Which I find to be propaganda in hope for a perfection that will never arrive to the diversity of humanity.
You are just the guy on SF, but when you're HERE you are the guy on SF who talks about / questions religion a lot? It's not a label as much as qualifying. :unsure:
 
I agree. But I think one's faith has a lot to do with one's life experiences too. There are many people in the world who only have a religion, a faith, because that's how they were raised. It's embedded in their childhood experiences and they may to stick with that as adults, or seek out a new path, or reject it all as baloney.

Then there's others who have life experiences that choose them to adopt a faith belief in adulthood. So many pastors I have heard over the years say that when a person experiences sorrow and trouble in their lives, that's "God" trying to beat them with a stick until they turn to Him. Doesn't matter if it's HUMANS doing the beating and being the weapons of torture - they just blame everything on GOD. (I still remember one pastor, a famous mega-church pastor, actually saying one possible cause of the Holocaust was that God was trying to drive all those Jews to Christ. I was so young and unlearned in those days, but the more I thought about his opinion on that matter, the more my head wanted to explode.)

But darn, I see that a lot among evangelicals. They are always saying "bad is good" and saying man's evil is just God pushing people toward Him. As if every single life on the planet is waiting for a Moses to lead them across the parted Red Sea. As if we are not several hundred billion unique individuals since the dawn of man with our own unique relationships with the Universe.

Ah but that is it - the billions of souls are too much for them to comprehend with empathy, they don't even bother trying, so they whip out a Bible Story and apply a one-size-fits-all formula to all of mankind.

I do not mean to sound arrogant - I cannot comprehend hundreds of billions of souls either, not really. But that's what I resent about so many preachers - they say THEY DO comprehend everyone and then say: "Here's a Bible verse to slap on you!"
I don’t believe god pushes anything or anyone toward him. My god is not like that. I see god a the manager or owner of the universe. God’s purpose is to help humans, animals, plants and everything maintain order where each species behaves predictably according to design. is god
the creator according to the Bible? I cannot say however, if god is responsible for earth and the universe then why wouldn’t god make you and me?
 
I agree. But I think one's faith has a lot to do with one's life experiences too. There are many people in the world who only have a religion, a faith, because that's how they were raised. It's embedded in their childhood experiences and they may to stick with that as adults, or seek out a new path, or reject it all as baloney.

Then there's others who have life experiences that choose them to adopt a faith belief in adulthood. So many pastors I have heard over the years say that when a person experiences sorrow and trouble in their lives, that's "God" trying to beat them with a stick until they turn to Him. Doesn't matter if it's HUMANS doing the beating and being the weapons of torture - they just blame everything on GOD. (I still remember one pastor, a famous mega-church pastor, actually saying one possible cause of the Holocaust was that God was trying to drive all those Jews to Christ. I was so young and unlearned in those days, but the more I thought about his opinion on that matter, the more my head wanted to explode.)

But darn, I see that a lot among evangelicals. They are always saying "bad is good" and saying man's evil is just God pushing people toward Him. As if every single life on the planet is waiting for a Moses to lead them across the parted Red Sea. As if we are not several hundred billion unique individuals since the dawn of man with our own unique relationships with the Universe.

Ah but that is it - the billions of souls are too much for them to comprehend with empathy, they don't even bother trying, so they whip out a Bible Story and apply a one-size-fits-all formula to all of mankind.

I do not mean to sound arrogant - I cannot comprehend hundreds of billions of souls either, not really. But that's what I resent about so many preachers - they say THEY DO comprehend everyone and then say: "Here's a Bible verse to slap on you!"
I don’t believe god pushes anything or anyone toward him. My god is not like that. I see god a the manager and owner of the universe. God’s purpose is to help humans, animals, plants and everything maintain order where each species does as the species are designed to act and respond.

Think of it as god is the harmonias watcher/cartaker of the world and universe and the opposite of god, chaos is in constant struggle to upset the natural behavior of the elements, air, wind, fire, rock, paper, scissors. While god’s responsibility is to maintain equaliibrium and harmony.
 
Maybe this discussion could use some clarification as to just what Christianity really is. That seems to me to be the real problem in understanding here. Most people are not aware of the radical transformation Christianity has undergone over the past two thousand years, and especially in its first three to five hundred years as the Roman Catholic church began to adapt it into a commodity which it could control, institutionalize, and market.

The Jesus movement, originally called "the Way" by its followers, was at first a strictly Jewish phenomenon which rose up within Judaism as an emerging branch or sect within the Hebraic culture. Don't forget, Jesus was a Jew teaching Judaism to other Jews. What it looked like in its original form, its doctrines, teachings, practices, was quite different from what it later became after the self-proclaimed apostle Paul took it over, and especially after the Roman emperor Constantine adopted it and adapted it as the State religion of the most powerful empire on the face of the planet.

Eventually all the original followers of the teachings of Jesus (Yeshua) were routed out, hunted down, and mercilessly tortured and killed, and all the writings they left behind were labeled as heresy and were also destroyed. But in reading carefully what we have left to us, the Holy Bible, we can find evidence of what these early beliefs were, because the Roman church had to adapt what was already on record from the earliest stories recorded about Yeshua/Jesus.

What I find is that today's Christianity is not at all the religion Of Jesus, but is rather a religion About Jesus. You must dig a little deeper if you really want to know the truth. And, if you do, what you will find will truly set you free. It is not what you have been told.
 
Truthfully, I would be appalled at seeing anyone using their phone, a laptop, or reading a book or magazine while someone was speaking or preaching. That, to me, is just a plain lack of courtesy. Neither would I put my head back and go to sleep.

If the function was that unbearable I just wouldn't attend and my wife would understand why.
 
@sailormann >>>"...What it looked like in its original form, its doctrines, teachings, practices, was quite different from what it later became after the self-proclaimed apostle Paul took it over,..."

As someone that has read and studied the New Testament books, I would strongly disagree with that statement as would the majority of other scholars. It reads more like what is pushed by the liberal Jesus Seminar (the one with a prominent ridiculous PBS series) that had an agenda of dismissing St Paul because of scripture obviously conflicting with modern era gender issues. I'll just tersely address the St Paul issue because it is so important. Leaving readers to follow up with their own readings and research. Nor will debate such within this thread.

After St Paul who had been Saul met with Apostles, he was very much in contact with and approved by the early followers. In fact Peter prominently stated so in multiple scriptures and is clearly explained if one read's St. Luke's Acts of the Apostles book.

2 Peter 3:15-16
Peter said of Paul: “So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures”


IMO speculating, the reason Jesus needed Paul and used him so was because Jesus seemingly as gospel scripture shows had the expectation that the church St Peter was tasked to build would not succeed and rather die out. Accordingly, there was an expectation God would step in with an army of angels to subdue humans and their evil so by the end of the early follower's lifetime's the Revelation comings would occur.

But since soon after the Resurrection, the church looked likely to continue, Jesus had a problem. First Saul was strongly persecuting followers. Second, the Apostles were simple uneducated persons with none literate in Greek much less able to write. Thus were unable to record events beyond oral traditions. So Jesus killed two birds with one stone since Paul was highly educated including in the Jewish religion. And that worked out spectacularly.

Most of Paul's letters were before any of the 4 gospels were written. The following is often considered the most important scripture in all the New Testament that legitimatizes the Apostle's Creed. In part because it was written so early about 53 AD and if false, large numbers of still very much alive followers would have corrected it as after the Jerusalem Dispersion many fled to Greek cities Paul started churches within .

1 Corinthians 15
1 Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand,
2 by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He (Christ) appeared to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve.

6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
 
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That's good, well written and interesting. I can tell you are sincere in your quest for what is true. You have studied. I especially like where Paul says, "For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. And, "For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received..."

Paul was an eloquent speaker and I have to admit being moved by some of the beautifully poetic things he said. He certainly did love to toot his own horn, though. But his message, doctrine, and agenda were just that, his own, and similar to Christ's only in that he repeatedly called upon the name of Christ and claimed it to be from Christ. Similar, but subtly different. Not the religion of, but a religion about Jesus. Paul's religion. It came to be called Christianity.

And what about I Corinthians, particularly chapter 9 verses 20-22, where Paul says he is a Jew to the Jew, a Greek to the Greek, a law keeper to the law keepers, a law breaker to the law breakers. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Or in other words, I will do whatever I must do that I might win some converts to my version of the meaning and message of Christ.

There was obvious strife and contention between Paul and the Jerusalem church which is seen throughout his Epistles and especially in the book of the Acts. There was an open and ongoing theological war taking place between Paul and the true apostles, the twelve, which Jesus himself had chosen and ordained to the early church.

It had begun the moment Paul decided to stop persecuting the members of the movement and instead claimed to be one of that congregation, and began preaching his own modified version of what he claimed to be direct knowledge of the Gospel which had been given him by the resurrected Jesus himself.
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So when it comes to the new testament, I am a red letter man. I prefer to pay particular attention to the things which Jesus said and taught during his ministry on Earth. I am careful not to give too much weight to things in the New Testament which other people have added. Jesus / Yeshua brought a message to the world clearly defining the path to righteousness and salvation. Do you follow the teachings of Jesus? Or have you chosen Paul as your Lord and Savior?
 


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