I Got to Fly a Boeing 737-800

[JustDave]

I watched a video of one of those recent highly automated 737s that crashed on landing. I never heard the FDA's final results of the investigation, but I could see that the plane was coming in too low. Either the pilot or the automated system corrected by bringing the nose up. This would be the correct solution providing you have enough speed to lift the plane up. If you don't have enough speed, you slow down even more and land in a hard "thunk" or a flat out crash.

With a fully automated system, you would expect the programed algorithms to make all the necessary coordinated adjustments to land correctly. Maybe the pilot switched to manual, if in fact the system would allow that, but by that time, it was too late. If the plane was going too slow, full throttle takes seconds to have any affect on the speed.

Of course I'm not an expert, but I do partially understand some of the flight dynamics involved. But there's a lot going on all at the same time in a landing, and you're supposed to get them all coordinated together. You can't forget one critical factor and expect the other ten to save the day.

 

[oldman]

Does ILS compensate for crosswinds?

No. By using the ailerons and rudder, pilots can generally keep the plane level and in a straight position. Pitch and trim are important during landing. Pilots use instruments to determine wind speed and direction, but also ATC gives pilots the wind speed and direction before landing.
It’s best to put the nose wheel onto the centerline.

 

[oldman]

I watched a video of one of those recent highly automated 737s that crashed on landing. I never heard the FDA's final results of the investigation, but I could see that the plane was coming in too low. Either the pilot or the automated system corrected by bringing the nose up. This would be the correct solution providing you have enough speed to lift the plane up. If you don't have enough speed, you slow down even more and land in a hard "thunk" or a flat out crash.

With a fully automated system, you would expect the programed algorithms to make all the necessary coordinated adjustments to land correctly. Maybe the pilot switched to manual, if in fact the system would allow that, but by that time, it was too late. If the plane was going too slow, full throttle takes seconds to have any affect on the speed.

Of course I'm not an expert, but I do partially understand some of the flight dynamics involved. But there's a lot going on all at the same time in a landing, and you're supposed to get them all coordinated together. You can't forget one critical factor and expect the other ten to save the day.

Either the pilot or the automated system corrected by bringing the nose up. This would be the correct solution providing you have enough speed to lift the plane up. If you don't have enough speed, you slow down even more and land in a hard "thunk" or a flat out crash.

I think you are referring to the “flair” for the landing. One part that’s crucial was omitted. On landing, by extending the flaps, drag will slow the plane, but keep it airborne at a slower speed. As the plane is descending for landing, the flaps are extended because the plane’s speed is being slowed. Generally, there are three or four steps used in extending the flaps as the plane descends and the speed is slowed. The flaps are extended to allow more air to flow over the wings as the speed is slowed. We also keep the nose raised slightly, which helps to slow the aircraft without pulling back on the accelerators. Keeping the engines speed up will prevent a stall.

I know all of thus sounds confusing and some of it may not even make sense, but there are a lot of variables that the pilot can use during landing the aircraft. It mainly depends on how the pilot is landing. Is he or she using the A/P or hand flying the plane? What are the weather conditions? What equipment does the aircraft and airport have available? And so on.

 

[JustDave]

I think you are referring to the “flair” for the landing. One part that’s crucial was omitted. On landing, by extending the flaps, drag will slow the plane, but keep it airborne at a slower speed. As the plane is descending for landing, the flaps are extended because the plane’s speed is being slowed. Generally, there are three or four steps used in extending the flaps as the plane descends and the speed is slowed. The flaps are extended to allow more air to flow over the wings as the speed is slowed. We also keep the nose raised slightly, which helps to slow the aircraft without pulling back on the accelerators. Keeping the engines speed up will prevent a stall.

I know all of thus sounds confusing and some of it may not even make sense, but there are a lot of variables that the pilot can use during landing the aircraft. It mainly depends on how the pilot is landing. Is he or she using the A/P or hand flying the plane? What are the weather conditions? What equipment does the aircraft and airport have available? And so on.

Yes, I don't think I ever used the word "flair" because I didn't know what it was called, but all that stuff about flaps and engine speed, I could actually feel that in the sim. Well, I'm taking a bit of liberty talking about what I could "feel." You can't feel anything in the sim, but I could still consciously be aware of it by keeping an eye on the information in the control panel and knowing what was happening to the plane. I could "sense" things in that way. If nosing up caused an unsolvable acceleration in my descent, I could solve that with a bit more throttle but no more (or less) than what the landing speed required. I don't know if that was correct, but it worked in the sim.

 

[oldman]

Yes, I don't think I ever used the word "flair" because I didn't know what it was called, but all that stuff about flaps and engine speed, I could actually feel that in the sim. Well, I'm taking a bit of liberty talking about what I could "feel." You can't feel anything in the sim, but I could still consciously be aware of it by keeping an eye on the information in the control panel and knowing what was happening to the plane. I could "sense" things in that way. If nosing up caused an unsolvable acceleration in my descent, I could solve that with a bit more throttle but no more (or less) than what the landing speed required. I don't know if that was correct, but it worked in the sim.

I presume we are talking about being in our final for the landing. If so, here’s where we differ. You are adjusting your speed manually in the sim. On a 737 or larger aircraft or any plane using fly by wire, the plane will most likely have and use the auto throttles, which controls the necessary speed.

 

[JustDave]

I presume we are talking about being in our final for the landing. If so, here’s where we differ. You are adjusting your speed manually in the sim. On a 737 or larger aircraft or any plane using fly by wire, the plane will most likely have and use the auto throttles, which controls the necessary speed.

If auto throttle was available in the sim, I hadn't discovered it. But through the years I was continually discovering things, some quite basic that I should have known. Now the last version I had was the last one they put out, somewhere around 2000, before they closed and then started up again 20 years later. I could land hands free with the speed set at wherever I set it on the autopilot, but there were no automatic adjustments made to the speed. The minute the wheels touched down, I had to start turning things off and on in a flurry of activity and apply the breaks.

I've often wondered how close this came to actual aircraft. I was under the impression that their controls closely mimicked the real thing. But landing took a lot of concentration with that flurry of activity relying partly on muscle memory. The kind of thing I would hope wouldn't be that way for an actual pilot.