I wont fight to see grandchildren

RadishRose said:
RadishRose wrote:

"IMHO, it's run it's course."

Starsong wrote:
"Agreed.

There's no reason to continue beating a dead horse unless you really, really need the glue." Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be. - Abraham Lincoln
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Don't you two ever think differently :confused: ???

You could have humoured me by answering my questions (if you're man enough!)........I liked the dead horse joke BTW, though I'm not sure my vegetarian friend would have appreciated it so much unfortunately :( :D.
 

RR and I often think differently, just not on this topic.

Graham, as best I can figure out from various SF posts you've made, your life was greatly affected by an acrimonious divorce and ugly custody fight. At least in the custody portion you felt powerless and unfairly treated by the courts, your ex-wife, and possibly your daughter. An unfortunate outcome has been your daughter's lingering bitterness toward you. Because of those feelings, she isn't interested in a relationship with you and is also denying you access to her children. Have I got that about right or have I misinterpreted your situation?

This has to be agonizing for you, Graham. I can only imagine your pain, disappointment and anger toward the humans and judicial system that you believe stripped you of a relationship with your child (and subsequent grandchildren).

All that said, I found your questions calculating and disingenuous which is why I didn't answer them. That doesn't change the fact that I feel sorry for your pain. My heart goes out to you because you are obviously hurting deeply.

As for the horse remark, I am fully a vegetarian, nearly a vegan, and owned horses in my younger years, so the joke was made tongue-in-cheek.
 
I feel very sorry for you that you can't have any contact with your grandchildren. It isn't fair in my opinion. If your daughter has problems with you she should handle them between you and her and not keep her children from contact with you. Does she allow your ex-wife to have contact with the children . If she does can that be part of the reason you aren't included in their lives. Could your Ex have spread lies about you to your daughter ? In any case I am sorry that you can't be a part of their lives.
 
There are lots of grandparents who are estranged from their adult kids and grandkids for certain reasons...……...as my wife and I are from my daughter and daughers son, but life goes on for all of us. My wife fully understands the turmoil that happened years ago between my daughter and myself and the turmoil that happened between her and her mother (my "ex").

My daughter use to be on Facebook and we communicated on there, then she had an "out and out" with her mom, that involved law enforcement, moved away with her son and that was the end of our communications.
 
My daughters first word

Sassycakes said:
I feel very sorry for you that you can't have any contact with your grandchildren. It isn't fair in my opinion. If your daughter has problems with you she should handle them between you and her and not keep her children from contact with you. Does she allow your ex-wife to have contact with the children . If she does can that be part of the reason you aren't included in their lives. Could your Ex have spread lies about you to your daughter ? In any case I am sorry that you can't be a part of their lives.
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Honestly, don't feel so sad for me, because there are so many people out there more deserving of your sympathy and concern, and I am very very proud of my daughter (along with angry I admit), and she is a blessing to me regardless of anything that has happened since she arrived on this planet.

Mentioning her mother, as you've intuitively done, she told our daughter her first word was "mum", and of course our child believed this lie. The fact she even had to change our daughter's understanding, or knowledge of her first word says a lot about her (maybe she should be asked to complete the narcissistic trends survey). My ex. used to complain when we were together that it was not fair "da" or "dad" was our daughter's first word, so that leaves no room for doubt M'Lord!
 
ClassicRockr said:
There are lots of grandparents who are estranged from their adult kids and grandkids for certain reasons...……...as my wife and I are from my daughter and daughers son, but life goes on for all of us. My wife fully understands the turmoil that happened years ago between my daughter and myself and the turmoil that happened between her and her mother (my "ex").

My daughter use to be on Facebook and we communicated on there, then she had an "out and out" with her mom, that involved law enforcement, moved away with her son and that was the end of our communications.
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Very glad you are able to get on with your own life, just as so many do when they're excluded as I know from my father's rights campaigning days.
 
StarSong said:
Grahamg wrote:
"..........just in case it prompts interest here goes my latest thoughts in the form of a list of questions:

"Are you in favour of children verbally abusing their loving parent/parents?"


"Are you in favour of giving children a platform to verbally abuse their parents, in the guise of children's views being listened to and taken seriously?"


"Do you agree that any parent, following their divorce or separation from the other parent, should have no right to any privacy, even where there are no fears of any abuse regarding their child?"


"Is privacy in close interpersonal relationships required at all, or should any court appointed professional be permitted to ask your child any question they wish?"


Starsong wrote:
RR and I often think differently, just not on this topic.

Graham, as best I can figure out from various SF posts you've made, your life was greatly affected by an acrimonious divorce and ugly custody fight. At least in the custody portion you felt powerless and unfairly treated by the courts, your ex-wife, and possibly your daughter. An unfortunate outcome has been your daughter's lingering bitterness toward you. Because of those feelings, she isn't interested in a relationship with you and is also denying you access to her children. Have I got that about right or have I misinterpreted your situation?

This has to be agonizing for you, Graham. I can only imagine your pain, disappointment and anger toward the humans and judicial system that you believe stripped you of a relationship with your child (and subsequent grandchildren).

All that said, I found your questions calculating and disingenuous which is why I didn't answer them. That doesn't change the fact that I feel sorry for your pain. My heart goes out to you because you are obviously hurting deeply.

As for the horse remark, I am fully a vegetarian, nearly a vegan, and owned horses in my younger years, so the joke was made tongue-in-cheek.
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Okay, although I said you and RR think alike all the time I did not really mean it, and was just teasing you both (I'm afraid my memory is slipping a bit and can't be certain of most forum members views unless we've "had a run in" over something).

My questions are calculating, though I'd argue not disingenuous, because I do believe they are fair if as we know, children can be asked by family court welfare officers whether or not they love one of their parents, removing all semblance of privacy from such close interpersonal relationships as these (Goldwater, a Canadian lawyer wrote of the need for privacy in personal relationships back in or around 1990, along with a quote I could give you about "children's susceptibility to manipulation and control").

If you don't feel you can answer them, that tells me "I'm on the money" over the issues my questions raise.
 
Lots of verbosity on this topic. If my daughter suddenly decided I could no longer see my granddaughters, my life would go on, minus my interactions with those two. I'd be fine. Parents should be the judges of who sees their kids, NOT the courts. Only in abuse cases should the courts get involved. Kids do just fine without grandparents, although I'm sure many, in here, will disagree. So be it.
 
treeguy64 said:
Lots of verbosity on this topic. If my daughter suddenly decided I could no longer see my granddaughters, my life would go on, minus my interactions with those two. I'd be fine. Parents should be the judges of who sees their kids, NOT the courts. Only in abuse cases should the courts get involved. Kids do just fine without grandparents, although I'm sure many, in here, will disagree. So be it.
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I agree so far as "lots of verbosity on this topic", but would query why such behaviour might cause a problem?

So far as grandparents being excluded, and kids being fine etc. I do know of one example at least where a child was not okay when taken away from loving grandparents by the father and his new girlfriend of two weeks (the mother having died of cancer, and the grandparents being the child's main carer for a period after her death). Those grandparents were told by the family court in Scotland that they were "irrelevant people", but those grandparents did not take such a rebuff lightly, set up a self help group where many many other grandparents came forward with similarly heart breaking stories, and groups were set up across the UK as a result (GrandparentApart self help group). The man who set it up is now no longer with us, but he didn't take kindly to being dismissed as I've said, so do try to think about his point of view if you can.
 
I come from a dysfunctional family. My 17 year old niece was dating a 45 year old married guy, with 5 kids. Her mother & father (my brother) forbade her to see him any more. It turns out that her grandparents (my mom & dad) were allowing the couple to meet at their home. And my parents left the home to give my niece "some privacy". You can imagine the family dynamics when my brother & his wife found out about this. I think most people would agree that my parents stepped over the line. My parents don't think so. Was my niece driven to the arms of a married man by her parents? I don't have any snappy answers to fix this situation. There aren't any.
 
Fuzzy, "furious and disappointed" wouldn't begin to cover how I would feel if I were your brother and sister-in-law. Your parents not only stepped over the line, they obliterated it.

At 17 your niece isn't yet thinking like an adult - although she surely believes otherwise. 45 year old married men don't spend time with teenage girls for their sparkling wit, delightful conversation and grasp of current events.
 
grahamg said:
If you don't feel you can answer them, that tells me "I'm on the money" over the issues my questions raise.
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The word "abuse" is thrown around freely these days. I read your questions and went where I always go when someone mentions abuse in any context....do they actually know what they're talking about? As as a years long victims of abuse, and finally as a survivor, I can tell you that most folks don't have a clue what the word and the actions that go along with it actually mean, so it's difficult for me to assign much validity to your questions without knowing if you truly understand what you're talking about when you ask them. I mean no disrespect, but having been in the clutches of an abusive man for many years, watching my children be abused, suffering from PTSD and countless triggers as a result of the abuse I and my children experienced, I am skeptical when it comes to questions and discussions surrounding abuse, which is simply a convenient word to most people, but the fact of abuse is complex and nuanced, involving a psychology and psychopathy that is complicated.

It's taken me many years of counseling, therapy, group support and a lot of hard work on myself to get beyond the emotional and mental wounds inflicted on me from the abuse I experienced. The physical bruises healed quickly, but I'm still fighting the emotional and mental wounds.

I'm not saying any of this to garner sympathy, but simply to add a perspective and a depth to the subject.
 
grahamg said:
Just verbal abuse is my topic here
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I realize you do not mean to sound dismissive in the way you phrased that. Verbal abuse is abuse, along with mental, emotional, financial and sexual abuse, all of which can leave wounds and scars that go far deeper than physical abuse does. A broken bone will heal, a broken spirit sometimes never does.

My point stands. The word abuse is thrown around freely and until and unless I know without question that the person using the word knows fully and completely what they’re talking about, then I remain skeptical.
 
I ceertainly dont mean abuse in the sense you're thinking

Ronni said:
I realize you do not mean to sound dismissive in the way you phrased that. Verbal abuse is abuse, along with mental, emotional, financial and sexual abuse, all of which can leave wounds and scars that go far deeper than physical abuse does. A broken bone will heal, a broken spirit sometimes never does.

My point stands. The word abuse is thrown around freely and until and unless I know without question that the person using the word knows fully and completely what they’re talking about, then I remain skeptical.
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So far no one has come forward to try to answer my four questions, and if you don't mind my saying side tracking the thread into a debate about "domestic abuse" isn't likely to help.

In no way do I mean to say anything you might object to, as I'm only using the word "abuse" because I can think of no other.

I definitely "abused" my own mother, in the sense that I told her to "shut up" when she'd be "going on" about something (she loved me nonetheless, and my daughter, and never held anything against either of us).

If people can't answer simple questions, then as I've said earlier, "that is data", because if you say "I am in favour of children abusing a loving parent" (meaning no one should attempt to interfere and ban them from doing so), then I'd agree with you, no problem - but why no answers :confused: ?
 
We hear quite a bit from you on this issue -----we dont know what has gone on and only hearing one side which is yours ' so it makes very hard graham to voice any advice there is a bad bitterness there with the ex ' so not knowing all intimate details not sure what you need to do '
but seeing you care for your daughter -both need to sit and talk away from others ……….
 
I told my tale about how family matters can get messed up. Each side believing they are in the "right". As far as answering your 4 questions, only you can answer that.You're going to figure out for yourself what you truly want, and whether your actions are effective in pursuing your goals.
 
No one can answer whether or not they are in favour of children abusing parents other than I?

fuzzybuddy said:
I told my tale about how family matters can get messed up. Each side believing they are in the "right". As far as answering your 4 questions, only you can answer that.You're going to figure out for yourself what you truly want, and whether your actions are effective in pursuing your goals.
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So, no one other than myself can answer the questions I've brought up (generic questions I'd argue anyone on the planet could give some kind of response to), and they apply only to my situation you say?

Amongst the unexpected responses I get to the posts I make on one or two forums, your argument is right up there I have to tell you, and yet quite amusing for all that I must say :D :rolleyes:.
 
toffee said:
We hear quite a bit from you on this issue -----we dont know what has gone on and only hearing one side which is yours ' so it makes very hard graham to voice any advice there is a bad bitterness there with the ex ' so not knowing all intimate details not sure what you need to do '
but seeing you care for your daughter -both need to sit and talk away from others ……….
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You are right there, and I appreciate the forbearance shown, but I assure you it isn't the only thing I go on and on about even if it is the most persistent.

I would argue that as your children, if you wanted children in the first place, and a really great/unique little girl arrived, one planned by their parents along time prior (from fairly soon after they met), well something that close to what you feel is important to you is going to be something worth bothering others about when you don't see them.

The subject of alienation from children has been covered in books, and many doctors have written about it, (call it pseudoscience perhaps, but well and truly investigated).

As a fathers rights protestor back in the early years of this century I was urged by organisers of the protests to write to the bodies deciding what should enter the US list of recognised diseases and tell them "PAS" or "Parental alienation syndrome" should be added. I never did so and I'd glad I didn't, because to start with I don't know enough to tell any doctors what should be added to a list of diseases and I've now read a paper saying why there is resistance to pathologising alienation (pathologising childhood would result in my view).

Still, no answers yet to a single question - any brave souls out there wishing to stick their necks out (no, thought not :mad: !).
 
So far no one has come forward to try to answer my four questions, and if you don't mind my saying side tracking the thread into a debate about "domestic abuse" isn't likely to help.

In no way do I mean to say anything you might object to, as I'm only using the word "abuse" because I can think of no other.

I definitely "abused" my own mother, in the sense that I told her to "shut up" when she'd be "going on" about something (she loved me nonetheless, and my daughter, and never held anything against either of us).
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Bringing up the subject of abuse isn't side-tracking, it's simply defining terms. If you consider that telling your Mom to shut up is abuse, then you've completely proven my point.

Still, no answers yet to a single question - any brave souls out there wishing to stick their necks out (no, thought not
mad.png
!).
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Your questions are in fact disingenuous. Do you know what that means? "Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."

That's probably why you've received no answers. Do you actually expect anyone to answer IN THE AFFIRMATIVE on the subject of children "abusing" their loving parents??? Seriously?

Define your terms, specifically. And then ask genuine questions. And then you might get some thoughtful responses.
 
In support of my point of view

Ronni said:
Bringing up the subject of abuse isn't side-tracking, it's simply defining terms. If you consider that telling your Mom to shut up is abuse, then you've completely proven my point.

Your questions are in fact disingenuous. Do you know what that means? "Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."

That's probably why you've received no answers. Do you actually expect anyone to answer IN THE AFFIRMATIVE on the subject of children "abusing" their loving parents??? Seriously?

Define your terms, specifically. And then ask genuine questions. And then you might get some thoughtful responses.
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Look, you can define all you like, but my questions can be answered in whatever way anyone wishes to, but no one answering doesn't mean everyone thinks as you do or some others have suggested.

Here is a funny thing for you, when our UK family law makers, or family law experts looked at the issue or meaning of "The child's best interests" (Mnookin says no less a question than the meaning of life by the way), the professionals looking at the way our society responds to suggestions other considerations might play a part in family law, essentially by refusing to countenance such a thought, tells them the public's perception of a child's best interest has an almost mystical belief about it. Can't quote you there exact words, but they said something along the lines of the "power" behind saying this or that is in the child's best interests, over takes all other considerations.


Why is that linked to my questions you may ask? Well, it is just possible that those refusing to give even frivolous responses, or any kind of response, such as yourself perhaps, feel that in some way you are attacking the roots of what may or may not be "in children's best interests". Should they be encouraged to abuse a loving parent/parents, as I believe they are by "listening to their views, and taking them seriously"? Is it disingenuous to ask whether privacy is important in close personal relationships (if it is then the Canadian lawyer Goldwater was equally guilty)?

Don't respond if you wish, but questions will always be raised by someone, and if one day your son becomes estranged from his children, or you become estranged from grandchild then maybe my "silly, disingenuous, insincere questions may come to your mind too.
 
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