Ideal for me

hypochondriac

Well-known member
Location
Australia
Original Poster
yet how does Pol Pot Mao Stalin or Hitler go?
" oops sorry God about all those mass murders. promise it wont happen again" are some people beyond redemption? answer ?
i dont know....
 

Lara

Well-known member
Location
North Carolina
Religion. The root of much evil. I'll pass and take my chances
drifter, Sin (tempted by satan) is the root to ALL evil in all religions including Christianity, New Age, Scientology, etc
AND sin is in all atheists, in all agnostics, in all luke-warm "believers", in all spiritists, all who denounce the name of religion but in fact have their own "religion", in those who think they're "pretty good", in me, in you, in everyone.

That's why we all need a Savior in my view...and God's words in the bible. That's my choice and I believe it with every part of my being. And not because I made a random, uneducated, fear-driven, jump-on-the-bandwagon choice. My choice came from study, personal experiences, focus on searching and finding truth, prayerful listening, letting go of all that bound me, accepting the love and forgiveness I was being offered, and more. He shows me specific clear signs that he is with me when I'm listening, trusting, and obeying.

Surely you agree that life is made up of choices...and that very choice we make matters. There is no free pass. If you choose "Chance" or luck then you have chosen that. You have made your choice and must wait to find out at death if it was right or wrong. If wrong, it's too late to change your choice. I'm at peace knowing.
 

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drifter

Well-known member
I would not knock anyone's religion. Faith allows us to believe the Bible's teachings.
Without that faith, logic leads us to believe the end of life is the end of everything.
No purpose to life and as in the animal kingdom, luck and survival is what matters.
No one can say with certainty, I suppose. If life after death should exist, I'd like a little
Cabin down by a stream somewhere with shade trees and a cool breeze once in a while,
With a good library, and a small pot to make an occasional cup of coffee. If I'm not being too picky.
 

Lara

Well-known member
Location
North Carolina
Jeffrey Epstein
So does he really " get away with" all that sin?
Surely there is a Judgement Day for him. I dont believe in an "automatic" Hell. Hell only exists until we decide to fess up and own our mistakes. Epstein has to work off his crimes...somehow...is all a mystery of course but ....
as Dostoyevsky said " if there is no accountability for evil then we can do whatever we like. Life is meaningless"
yet how does Pol Pot Mao Stalin or Hitler go?
" oops sorry God about all those mass murders. promise it wont happen again" are some people beyond redemption? answer ?
i dont know....
Epstein will not "get away with all that sin". We don't know if he chose to believe in God in his last minutes before his death or not so we don't know his fate in eternity. But either way God will deal with his sins...hint: one way is harsher than the other. No one is beyond redemption until death. Jesus loves the sinner, just not the sin. But the sinner must choose to repent and believe in the free gift of forgiveness during their lifetime in order to receive forgiveness. I don't believe in an automatic hell either if you're talking about in one's lifetime while the choice to repent is still on the table. The only unforgivable sin is rejection of God and Jesus' love and grace all the way until death. Before and after death there is accountability for our sins. Jesus is our intercessor in heaven between us and God because Jesus is the one that made forgiveness possible for believers. He knows our hearts too. Its got to be real.
 
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RadishRose

Well-known member
Location
USA
I never heard of the Book of Macabees?? Its not in my Bible. I use the King James version and sometimes cross-reference other versions in seeking truth and clarity. I don't use commentaries or read what theologians say. It's just between me and God's Word for the most part. I sometimes pray before reading my Bible and ask God the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to me as I read. I like it to be a personal relationship. But as a last resort, if I'm confused, I will study further and seek trusted advice.
Protestants have eliminated the Book of Macabees when they wrote the KJV. That's why you never heard of it, Lara.
 

Lara

Well-known member
Location
North Carolina
Okay drifter, and I hope everyone understands that when I posted above, I wasn't telling anyone what to do. I was just bouncing off other's opinions and answering questions from where I'm at in my life. I respect where everyone is in their own journey.

Thank you Rose for that information. I never heard that before. Interesting because God's Word in the Bible makes it clear not to add nor subtract to the Bible (Deuteronomy 4:2, and 12:32). Also, not to add anything is mentioned in Revelations 22:18. I'll have to study up on that. Thanks!
 

hypochondriac

Well-known member
Location
Australia
Original Poster
Thank you Rose for that information. I never heard that before. Interesting because God's Word in the Bible makes it clear not to add nor subtract to the Bible (Deuteronomy 4:2, and 12:32). Also, not to add anything is mentioned in Revelations 22:18. I'll have to study up on that. Thanks!
Here's my opportunity to "debate" differences. :) I haven't researched yet but Im not powerfully interested anyway. This kind of theological difference would thrill many posters on a Christian forum. Over 100 post thread. "why macabees should never be in the Bible!" I find this kind of point trivial. And we can lose our sense of humour over what constitutes "the truth". here's my liberal tendencies shining through. there are of course some givens. Some objective truths like the Resurrection. Jesus was fully human. he really did suffer pain on the Cross. these kinds of truths we all agree on,. these truths unite us as Christians. They are the ones we don't have to debate. Out of interest though I might research up on macabees. Just for fun . Its not life threatening. :)
 
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hypochondriac

Well-known member
Location
Australia
Original Poster
God approves of the humble virtuous non Christian more than the less humble Christian. That's why we need to be always on the alert. God is in all things, in all people. And he shines through anyone. Some Christians are under the illusion that God only shines through them. They are mistaken. That's why the constant challenge for Christians is go back to square one. We aare ALL sinners. No sinner is better than another sinner. No Christian is better than another Christian nor better than a non-Christian.
God shames the "wise" with the apparent foolish person. I get these feelings that I am incredibly profound and wise sometimes. its rubbish. its all foolish egotism. Back to square one. we are all equal in the sight of God.
 

hypochondriac

Well-known member
Location
Australia
Original Poster
Ive done a little research on Macabees. One problem for non catholic denoms is the mention of Purgatory in Maccabees 2. Personally I like the idea of Purgatory, whether it is a reality or not. A chance to work off our sins, get cleaned up before we enter Heaven. makes sense to me. But no doubt that is going to upset some Christians. me even discussing it here. :)
 

Lara

Well-known member
Location
North Carolina
Ive done a little research on Macabees. One problem for non catholic denoms is the mention of Purgatory in Maccabees 2. Personally I like the idea of Purgatory, whether it is a reality or not. A chance to work off our sins, get cleaned up before we enter Heaven. makes sense to me. But no doubt that is going to upset some Christians. me even discussing it here. :)
I'm learning so I'm feeling the opposite of upset. Whether one believes in Purgatory or not is not going to change the basics of what makes one a Christian. The only thing I see about "working off your sins in a place called purgatory" is that it makes Jesus' purpose on the cross null and void. He made it easy for all to be completely forgiven of all our sins by taking our punishment on the cross. Once he saved us, he would'nt take that gift back and make us pay our own price for our sins and suffer. That would rob us of all the joy he suffered for. All we have to do is admit we're sinners, repent, and believe Jesus is who he said he is. So suffering in purgatory sounds inconsistent with the teachings of the New Testament...forgiveness is free for the asking. Thats probably why the Book of Macabbee was not chosen to be part of my Bible.
 

hypochondriac

Well-known member
Location
Australia
Original Poster
im not biting Lara. These kinds of debates ive been in so many times. Neither of us can prove whether Purgatory exists or not. I like the idea of being made holy enough for Heaven. It makes a lot of sense to this homeboy Catholic. 😂
 

Lara

Well-known member
Location
North Carolina
im not biting Lara....Neither of us can prove whether Purgatory exists or not. I like the idea of being made holy enough for Heaven. It makes a lot of sense to this homeboy Catholic. 😂
And I'm not fishing nor telling you that purgatory doesn't exist. I've heard of the word purgatory but wasnt aware of what it was even. I learned from your post that purgatory is "A chance to work off our sins, get cleaned up before we enter Heaven" as described in a book of your Bible called Macabbee that doesn't exist in my KJV Bible.

I shared what I know in my Bible, that Jesus' purpose was to do that work of cleaning up our sins for us on the cross so that we don't have to...a gift by just believing it. Purgatory may very well exist for those who don't believe the purpose of Jesus suffering on the cross for our sins. I understand not wanting to debate it any further and I'm on board with that. I don't want to either "handshake"🙂
 

hypochondriac

Well-known member
Location
Australia
Original Poster
Man! Gas Hot Water System Problems again. Another leak. This time from the base. Steam pouring out.
we turned the water off. but now we wonder whether we should turn off the gas heater as well. googled but the jury is out. depends on context. our system is 16 years old time for a new one. only 1000 bucks for a new one.
we will be up for extra water usage as well.
 

hypochondriac

Well-known member
Location
Australia
Original Poster
Ive been in debates over faith and works so many times. Actually the Catholic experts say that we fundamentally agree with Protestants on the greater emphasis on faith over works. that works should be a manifestation of our faith.
You know but I need to keep reminding myself that I cant "get back in God's good books" by doing voluntary work for example. It is so easy to make that mistake. " oh I will be well behaved today so God will love me more". Somehow we have to understand that God's love comes with no caveats, no conditions, no disclaimers. "ok hypo now if you are a good virtuous boy for the rest of your life, I will reserve a place for you right next to me in heaven." How childishly we can think to ourselves. This is the hardest thing for any of us to fully accept. God loves us full stop. Despite our sin. When we repent, its not like we regain God's favour. its just that we feel closer to God again. We can "feel" His love again. Sin separates us from God. While we are sinning God still loves us. But He is disappointed that He cant feel our love for Him back. Am I explaining this well? Am I theologically correct? Well of course different Christians will have different viewpoints. I wonder if I could say that sin causes "separation anxiety". Is it so wild to think that God feels anxious when we sin? If we are not anxious when we sin maybe that indicates how caught up in sin we are. Total lack of self-awareness.
 

AZ Jim

Well-known member
Taking up a religion because it was my parents or friend or whatever is folly. One can find God without the spins of any special church. The path to our Lord is littered with detours that can derail our plan to be closer to God. Listen to your heart.
 

hypochondriac

Well-known member
Location
Australia
Original Poster
Taking up a religion because it was my parents or friend or whatever is folly. One can find God without the spins of any special church. The path to our Lord is littered with detours that can derail our plan to be closer to God. Listen to your heart.
sounds good to me Jim.
 

hypochondriac

Well-known member
Location
Australia
Original Poster
Here is an answer to the complaint that God ignores suffering on Earth. Made by Stephen Fry a famous atheist. best answer Ive seen for a while

I believed in what Stephen Fry said. I cheered him. I sent him a message on Twitter agreeing with him. My own argument with God has been a long one. My anger and despair with Him has lasted years. It was based on the sufferings of my mother and my best friend. My mother has arthritis in her joints and her spine and suffers from horrible pain because of it. My best friend has cerebral palsy and cannot walk or talk or take care of himself. I could find no reason, no justification in either of those things. As human beings we have learned so much and gained so much power to control our lives, our environments and the lives and environments of all other living things on this planet. We believe that we are at the top of the tree in terms of knowledge, intelligence and power. We're not. We've barely reached the lowest branches of that tree. It is indeed arrogant of human beings to believe that just because we've learned a little we know everything. It is sad that we believe that science is at odds with faith. I was arrogant, like Stephen Fry, and I believed that if I couldn't see a reason for suffering then there must be no reason. Last year I began to pray to God. I don't know exactly why. There was no voice, no flash of light, no vision, no angelic visitation. I just prayed and I felt better. I have had depression for much of my adult life, mostly if not entirely because of the anger and despair I feel in the face of the suffering of the people I love. That anger and that despair have not helped me in any way. They have made things worse. Since my first prayer to God my anger and despair have gone. Believe me when I say that I am as surprised and shocked by this as anyone could be. I mean, when I say I was angry with God I mean I was ANGRY. I hated God, despised Him. Loathed Him for not intervening and curing the illnesses and taking away the suffering all around me. I was, like Stephen Fry, caught up in the arrogance of humanity, the assumption that I had a right to understand everything simply because it suited me to want to know right now. To disbelieve in God just because He doesn't tell you everything you demand to know is very arrogant and petulant. Accepting God, having faith in God, well, that is more reassuring, more rewarding and offers more scope for understanding than I'd ever have believed. To accept God is to accept that we human beings are not the all powerful ultimate beings in existence and that we do not know and understand everything. Faith in God also gives us a reason to keep on striving to learn, to understand, to discover as much as we can about Him and His creation. Science is so often seen as the opposite of Faith but in reality science and faith have the same goals - the understanding of everything in creation and therefore an understanding of God. Perhaps when science and faith bring us to that point where we can look at creation, look into the eyes of God and say 'Now I understand', then we will have the answers to all the questions we have ever asked. It will be a long journey to get to that point, but a journey that will be so very worth it. Perhaps it is the journey that God wants us to make.
 

Lara

Well-known member
Location
North Carolina
Post122 is nicely penned. Excellent.
There are more than 100 reasons listed in the Bible as to why good people suffer...and why God allows suffering.
So that's a good place to find answers. I've found that when I pray with a question, I often find God's answer in unexpected ways and right in the Bible in black and white, but if I stop opening my Bible he can't show me his answer. You're right that we won't always know all there is to know. Only God is all knowing.
 
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hypochondriac

Well-known member
Location
Australia
Original Poster
No better place than the Book of Job.
Man will never fully understand Gods plan. Its like an uneducated mutt trying to understand the thinking of an astrophysicist. Dont even insult the astrophycist by trying. You dare to put yourself on the same level as God?
 

hypochondriac

Well-known member
Location
Australia
Original Poster
Big story here on Cardinal Pell. He loses his appeal.As if the Catholic Church hasnt got a poor public image already.
But this might be the impetus we need for real change
Gotta have female priests. Gotta present a more compassionate image for gays. Now ultra conservatives will jump on my case for even suggesting that. But thats their problem. The real problem is stubborn conservatism in the Church. Old male clergy look like hypocrites. Its gotta change.
 


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