I'm struggling to understand the term "irrational behaviour or fear"

grahamg

grahamg

Old codger
Location
South of Manchester, UK
I thought I understood what it meant when someone was described as behaving irrationally or holding or professing an "irrational fear", but the more I try to look into what a court or legal people might decide amounted to irrational fear or irrational behaviour, or even what might be understood by the terms by other professionals, the less I seem to understand it, (is it me?!).

Put as simply as I can I believe "someone behaving irrationally, or showing an irrational fear has no reason or justification for doing so",......., and signs that this behaviour might be irrational include whether the individual sought to find or uncover the truth of whatever it might be.

To give you an example I believe I once witnessed someone behaving irrationally, (someone who normally didn't exhibit such behaviour). The person concerned made unsubstantiated claims they had items stolen from them by a close relative, the relative's wife, and all their five young children, (ignoring the fact these people were all known to be of impeccable character). Furthermore, instead of confronting the person they believed had stolen from them they tried to tell anyone who might listen that they had been robbed, and doing so without giving any particulars as to what they thought they had lost. They repeated these allegations over a very long period, and so much so, a number of the deluded persons friends really believed a crime had been committed.

Another odd aspect or behaviour, or irrational aspect was not taking their allegations to the police, if they truly believed something had been taken, and the person I'm described really did seem to believe they'd been robbed and were genuinely upset or distressed about it.
When I tried to tell this person they were completely deluded and acting irrationally (or "Off their head" to give you my exact words!), they were completely unable to understand where they were going wrong, and had made some dreadful mistake.

For the purposes of this discussion please assume (and/or accept) the example I've just given you is just as I've described it, (and if that's a struggle for you, please cite another example where you believe you witnessed someone behaving irrationally, or having an irrational fear, and substitute your example, and we'll try to take the discussion from there).
 

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Irrational fear, at least in a court of law setting, is simply a possible defense of why a person acted the way they did, Justification or maybe "The choice between two evils".

It could relate to phobias. An "irrational fear of spiders". IF could trigger anxiety/panic attacks. A person acts irrationally when they act in a manner "A reasonably prudent person would or would not act/do in the same or similar circumstances" the basic definition of negligence. However, being irrational is not by any legal standard, the same as negligence, just an example of such. You can do something irrational and be completely acting in a non-tortious manner.
 
grahamg said:
To give you an example I believe I once witnessed someone behaving irrationally, (someone who normally didn't exhibit such behaviour). The person concerned made unsubstantiated claims they had items stolen from them by a close relative, the relative's wife, and all their five young children, (ignoring the fact these people were all known to be of impeccable character). Furthermore, instead of confronting the person they believed had stolen from them they tried to tell anyone who might listen that they had been robbed, and doing so without giving any particulars as to what they thought they had lost. They repeated these allegations over a very long period, and so much so, a number of the deluded persons friends really believed a crime had been committed.
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Unfortunately, spinning unsubstantiated stories(lies / half-truths) is all too common, and it seems that many people fall victim to such, and readily accept the falsehood.

"A lie left unchallenged becomes the truth"...
 
ohioboy said:
Irrational fear, at least in a court of law setting, is simply a possible defense of why a person acted the way they did, Justification or maybe "The choice between two evils".

It could relate to phobias. An "irrational fear of spiders". IF could trigger anxiety/panic attacks. A person acts irrationally when they act in a manner "A reasonably prudent person would or would not act/do in the same or similar circumstances" the basic definition of negligence. However, being irrational is not by any legal standard, the same as negligence, just an example of such. You can do something irrational and be completely acting in a non-tortious manner.
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Explaining the way a court looks at the matter is very helpful.

Unfortunately my tiny brain is still spinning slightly, as it does almost every time I try to read a document connected to a court process, and as you probably know already, many sentences in legal documents can be very long, as well as convoluted.
 
Nathan said:
Unfortunately, spinning unsubstantiated stories(lies / half-truths) is all too common, and it seems that many people fall victim to such, and readily accept the falsehood.
"A lie left unchallenged becomes the truth"...
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I like your quotation, though in the example I tried to put forward the untruthful allegations were not from the mouth of someone I had any doubts about concerning his genuinely believing he'd been burgled, hence my assertion he was acting irrationally believing in such nonsense about a theft of property when there had been none.

Furthermore you'd go out of your way wouldn't you, to try to be sure of your fact wouldn't you, before making such a wild allegation against a whole family of good character.
 
grahamg said:
Explaining the way a court looks at the matter is very helpful.

Unfortunately my tiny brain is still spinning slightly, as it does almost every time I try to read a document connected to a court process, and as you probably know already, many sentences in legal documents can be very long, as well as convoluted.
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Sometimes they are, yes. I happen to understand a little better and hope it's useful to others at times.
 
To explain further, (as you probably know) the reason for laws regarding irrational fear and behavior is so that courts can intervene (with court-ordered mental health services, for example) and protect the rights of irrational person (i.e., appoint a caregiver or executor). That's why definitions of the mental health issue are so lengthy and in-depth. And certainly, it can be confusing. Courts often have trouble interpreting the finer points.
 
grahamg said:
To give you an example I believe I once witnessed someone behaving irrationally, (someone who normally didn't exhibit such behaviour). The person concerned made unsubstantiated claims they had items stolen from them by a close relative, the relative's wife, and all their five young children
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I listened to an interesting lecture once that mentioned some terminal brain disease that had initial presenting symptoms that were documented in medical literature, but that when researching the history of people that developed the disease, it became apparent that there were earlier symptoms and they were that the person became difficult, would lose their jobs, leave their families, etc.

It makes you wonder if something was happening with your acquaintance's brain, maybe a bad reaction to a medication, a mini-stroke in some particular location that could cause a bit of paranoia or something.

I guess I have irrational behavior too though, I feel totally freaked out driving over high bridges, through long tunnels, and on mountainous roads. Living in a flat boring midwest area for the past recent years I'd forgotten about it, but now that I'm close to retirement and want to travel around the country after I retire I guess I am going to have to figure out what to do about my irrational fears.
 
The accusation
Quote
"The person concerned made unsubstantiated claims they had items stolen from them by a close relative, the relative's wife, and all their five young children, (ignoring the fact these people were all known to be of impeccable character)."


Not irrational if any of the any member of the family took something of little value that wasn't worth reporting. Could be animosity towards the family or the person concerned even though whatever he believed was stolen wasn't of great value thought it worthwhile to put others on alert.
 
In my youth I worked at a large mental health facility (basically, an asylum). One of our patients had an irrational fear of walking through doorways. Sometimes he was so panicked I had to carry him over the threshold of his room, while he screamed and cried, so that he could walk down the hall to the dining room. Soon as I stood him up in the hallway, he was fine....till we got to the door of the dining room.

That's irrational fear.
 
grahamg said:
Furthermore you'd go out of your way wouldn't you, to try to be sure of your fact wouldn't you, before making such a wild allegation against a whole family of good character.
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In re-reading your OP I'm coming away with the impression the the person(s) making the false allegations against the family might have an "axe to grind", perhaps for some other incident unrelated to the alleged theft?
 
Nathan said:
In re-reading your OP I'm coming away with the impression the the person(s) making the false allegations against the family might have an "axe to grind", perhaps for some other incident unrelated to the alleged theft?
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Well, I'd have to say there were probably some other differences between the accuser and accused, but you couldn't make every member of their family out to be thieves, when absolutely none of them were, nor ever have been anything other than honest and hardworking, if you were thinking anything like straight..
 
Knight said:
The accusation, Quote "The person concerned made unsubstantiated claims they had items stolen from them by a close relative, the relative's wife, and all their five young children, (ignoring the fact these people were all known to be of impeccable character)."
Not irrational if any of the any member of the family took something of little value that wasn't worth reporting. Could be animosity towards the family or the person concerned even though whatever he believed was stolen wasn't of great value thought it worthwhile to put others on alert.
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If you read the OP carefully you'll note I'm very happy that anyone who believes they've witnessed irrational behaviour to come up with their own example, (rather than question mine, as it will only divert the thread, and I'm confused enough over this topic already!).
 
I read somewhere (I think it was PsycheGuides) that irrational behavior can manifest itself in emotional reactions that can be symptoms of irrational behavior disorders. They are:
  • Easily getting annoyed or nervous.​
  • Often appearing angry.​
  • Putting blame on others.​
  • Refusing to follow rules or questioning authority.​
  • Arguing and throwing temper tantrums.​
  • Having difficulty in handling frustration.​
 
Here is another example of what I'm saying is "Irrational behaviour/fear".

Once again someone of my acquaintance making allegations against another close family member. This time the allegation is being terrified of them, though once again, even when given the opportunity to confront the person with their allegation, and in front of witnesses, failing to do so, (instead bringing up issues or allegations concerning other unrelated things).

Again no report to the police being made, and no details being furnished to anyone as to what was supposed to have happened to induce fear.

It is worth saying the man concerned is in his nineties, though once again a generally truthful and strong character, certainly throughout most of their life.

Again, on the story and details provided here, (and once again for the purposes of this discussion, assuming all to be 100% accurate), is this an example fitting the description "irrational behaviour"?
 
I've now managed to do a bit more research based upon the helpful advice given to me above, and this is what I've found so far:

Quote:
"The question of subjective belief is in point, but so is the concept of rationality. Rationality requires that a minimum objective standard be applied to the behaviour, not just that the behaviour is reasonable.

The alleged harasser must have applied rational thought to the circumstances before he or she can be regarded as having the purpose of preventing or detecting a crime, otherwise the actions taken are irrational. Behaviour which is irrational cannot be said to have the relevant purpose (the detection or prevention of crime) at all. The behaviour in this case was not rational and thus it could not constitute a defence against the claim that it was harassment."

https://www.kermanco.com/sincere-belief-does-not-justify-harassment/

(if you follow the link you will see the legal process described had to go through a few stages or appeals before becoming an established or final conclusion of the courts).
 
My computer table faces a front window. Directly across the street lives a 96 year-old widow. She called me last year asking if I had seen any strangers going into her house ('Since you sit up in that window all the time!") It seems a piece of her jewelry was missing and she was sure a thief had been inside her house. I would call her belief irrational because: 1, she almost never leaves her house. 2, I actually do "sit up in this window" a lot and I try to keep an eye on her, watching carefully when she's outside puttering. 3, nothing else was missing. 4, she's been accusing my pets of things they couldn't possibly have done since we moved here 15 years ago.

So one answer might be senility. Another might be paranoia from certain medication or the onset of certain diseases. I can't blame anyone for getting notions in their head, but Graham's person is bearing false witness against people all over town and that's a real shame.

On the other hand, I just watched a Dateline episode where a woman "well known to be of impeccable character" helped a murderer break out of prison. ;)
 
Fear itself is not a rational process, it is an emotional reaction. Unless the person is lieing, then whatever they fear is REAL/seemingly "rational" for them. We all have these subconscious reactions to things...it is our like/dislike attraction/avoidance instincts. Does the abused person irrationally fear being abused again? etc.... Schizophrenics are a prime example. I have an irrational fear of police. Or do I?
 
Some more reading for everyone, (sit up at the back of the class! :) ).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3595162/

Quote:
"At the outset, we need an operational definition of “fear”. The approach I advocate is pragmatic: fear is an intervening variable between sets of context-dependent stimuli and suites of behavioral response. Its usefulness is explanatory, and one can be agnostic about any correspondence with other psychological, let alone neurobiological, states. Such a variable could take on a consistent set of values within an individual, and differ systematically between individuals, making it a candidate for a personality trait. "
 
I know this will take the thread off topic, but I came across this poem, written some time ago by an Antipodean friend, (referring to fear):

Quote:

The peace of children in their beds

The peace of children in their bed
Denies the fears in a fathers head

He must provide, he must not fail
His children must, through their lives sail

It's up to him to pave the way
His deepest thoughts he can't convey

For deep within a fathers mind
Despite his efforts to be kind

Are doubts and fears beyond compare
For his little children sleeping there

They'll never know how hard it's been
To protect them from the unforeseen

Their lives will leave them unaware
Of the stress involved in a fathers care

Of his sleepless nights, his constant fears
Of his powerful love and joyful tears

As he watched them sleeping safe and sound
With no one to threaten, or their lives confound

As they grow and develop, and each achieves
He carefully informs, but never deceives

These two will remain intact and complete
Their dad won't ever, let evil defeat

The care and protection he's there to provide
No one can push a real father aside

But as they do, his children will grow
And the lives he provides, will never show

How hard he tried, against impossible odds
To spare their backs, from life's painful rods

In their ignorance his children will most likely condemn
The enormous efforts he’s made for them

For how can they know a life different to theirs?
Unless one of them actually, looks and compares

Their father’s pathway, and his life
Before he made their mother his wife

The children came first from then you see
There was no room for selfish, in his family

By hook or by crook, their dreams all came true
Their father kept working, he knew what to do

His children will never be living his life
Trying so hard, with such trouble and strife

Life must be different for his children you see
"I don't want my children living like me"

It must be accepted, sometimes kids fall
That's when a father needs only a call

Always there to lend a hand
Making a cubby or playing with sand

A joyful, carefree, happy life
That's all he wants for his children and wife

Yet here he sits, alone and confused
His efforts all wasted, completely abused

His family aren’t here, though he's done no wrong
What are they thinking, he’s been so strong

Look at their lives’, can’t they all see
Without his efforts, where they might be?

They’ve never cleaned toilets or others muck
They’ve never ever, been down on their luck

All they have known has been only the best
Because their father didn't stop to rest

He just kept going, believing they cared
Now they are hiding or running scared

But scared of what, he wonders aloud
He looks back at his life and can only be proud

He did his best, they can't deny that
Most other people are dipping their hat

To a man who gave more than many others
He put them all first, couldn't have his druthers

They all enjoy the best of lives
Let’s hope their good fortune always survives

That they never experience, such bitterness and hate
After such a great effort, as a dad and a mate

Things taken for granted, not actually seen
No one knows, where his strong back has been

Sometimes the very best of care
Can see a you alone, just standing there

Wondering why, you no longer see
A single member, of your family
 
Jules said:
Did he ever tell you what was stolen?

What is something that the whole family of a husband & wife & five children could have stolen?
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If you really wanted you could have the complete supposed list, but as it includes bolts of cloth, prints of wildlife pictures similar to those you find at boot sales, (so not numbered, limited edition prints or anything like that), cutlery, and "lots of boxes", (from a disused annex with no lock on the door, and hardly a door, as it was so ill fitting),..., etc., etc.!

Do I need to go on, and in my opinion these items were simply lost, and I seem to remember discovering some of them a year or two after the allegations were made, but by then luckily the nonsense had faded from memory, (though the allegations were never retracted).
 
Then it does seem like more a personal tiff that he misconstrued as theft. Or it could be that some members of the family thought of that shed as holding junk that no one wanted. Kids can be kids. Glad the memories have faded.
 

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