Indonesian Airline Crashes. 189 Presumed Lost

[StarSong]

UPDATE: Boeing has sent out a safety bulletin regarding the accident in Indonesia with the Boeing 737-Max. Boeing is stating that there "may" be a problem with the AOA Sensor. AOA stands for Angle Of Attack. In layman's terms, this means the angle at which the plane is climbing. When a plane climbs too steep, it is possible that there will not be enough air flowing over the wings to keep the plane aloft, which in turn will cause a stall. Unlike your car when a stall occurs and the engine shuts off, in an airplane the engines keep running, but thrust alone will allow the plane climb. There has to be enough air flowing over the wings in order to keep the plane aloft and flying.

The Indonesia (Lyon Airlines) crash was "possibly" caused by a defective AOA Sensor while the plane was climbing out after takeoff. The pilot flying the plane was hand flying the plane at the time of the crash. It was also noted that the AOA Sensor was replaced just the day before this crash. So, is it coincidence or reality? The AOA Sensor will be tested and if there is a software problem with the sensor, my question is , "What will Boeing or the FAA do about it?" Will all 737-Max airplanes be grounded until the problem is fixed? We don't know because no one has commented on that question as yet.

Here in the U.S., many pilots will turn on the Autopilot (AP) and let the plane operate under the direction of the software in the AP. It is not unusual for a pilot to turn on his AP after takeoff and reaching above 1000 feet. The AP knows what the climb rate is and will not let the plane climb so steep as to cause a stall. Generally, I liked hand flying the plane on takeoff just because I enjoyed taking the plane up to its cruising altitude. There were times when I would use the AP to take us up to our cruising altitude, but mostly I liked to keep my skills sharp, so I would hand fly the airplane. It's all about personal preference.

This is fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to spell it out in layman's terms.

 

[oldman]

Would the CVR answer the question of what happened?

Well, here goes, but you may not like the answer. Most pilots, when they speak with one another about what they would do in case they were probably going down, say they would speak loud and clear enough to be heard and telling what they were experiencing.

In actual crashes where the CVR was pulled and played back, what has been heard are the pilots trying to correct the problem and fly the plane the whole way to the ground. In only a very few instances did the pilots say anything about what they were experiencing.

It certainly would be a wonderful thing, if the pilots would have explained their experience, but I can very much understand why they focused on getting the plane back under control.

I remember back in 1991, a United flight (585) crashed just outside of Colorado Springs. Flight 585 was Captained by Harold Green, who taught me to fly the B-737. He was an outstanding, safety-oriented pilot, who said nothing on the CVR about the issue that he was having. All that was heard was that they were having issues with the plane, declaring an emergency and then that they were nose down.

It took another accident and then another occurrence, which that time the plane was high enough that the pilots had time to recover, for the NTSB to figure out that the issue was due to a stuck rudder valve.

 

[Butterfly]

Well, here goes, but you may not like the answer. Most pilots, when they speak with one another about what they would do in case they were probably going down, say they would speak loud and clear enough to be heard and telling what they were experiencing.

In actual crashes where the CVR was pulled and played back, what has been heard are the pilots trying to correct the problem and fly the plane the whole way to the ground. In only a very few instances did the pilots say anything about what they were experiencing.

It certainly would be a wonderful thing, if the pilots would have explained their experience, but I can very much understand why they focused on getting the plane back under control.

I remember back in 1991, a United flight (585) crashed just outside of Colorado Springs. Flight 585 was Captained by Harold Green, who taught me to fly the B-737. He was an outstanding, safety-oriented pilot, who said nothing on the CVR about the issue that he was having. All that was heard was that they were having issues with the plane, declaring an emergency and then that they were nose down.

It took another accident and then another occurrence, which that time the plane was high enough that the pilots had time to recover, for the NTSB to figure out that the issue was due to a stuck rudder valve.

I just thought they might say something like "Oh, no, the whatsis isn't working right!"

 

[oldman]

I just thought they might say something like "Oh, no, the whatsis isn't working right!"

You know, we would all think so, but in reality, it has only happened a few times. I remember watching the video on YouTube when the plane went down in the river in Washington, D.C. The last thing the First Officer said to the Captain was, "We're going down, Larry." And to that, Larry replied, "I know."

After I read the final NTSB report, it was determined that the plane's failure to gain lift and fly was because of the ice on the wings. Not only does ice add weight to the wings, but more importantly, ice interrupts the flow of air going over the wings. It turned out that both pilots were from Florida and had very little experience flying here in the North in the winter. The Captain's failure to order a second washing with deicing fluid because he was in a hurry to get back to Ft. Lauderdale, cost 78 people their life.

 

[Butterfly]

Yea, I guess I knew that -- I used to watch all those "Mayday" plane crash reconstruction programs, till I ran out of programs. I guess sometimes they say something to the tower that might be helpful, but not anywhere near always. For some (macabre, I guess) reason I've always been fascinated by why planes crash. Maybe it's because I am not the most confident flyer.

I always wondered why in the world that flight took off from DC with ice that way. I'd think the pilots would be very concerned about their own safety, as well as that of the passengers. Surely, they knew about the dangers of icing . . . . I don't understand the aerodynamics of it (somewhere deep in my heart I don't really think it's possible that a huge plane can get off the ground at all, despite knowing to the contrary) but I know it's a big concern. Why do you suppose they took that chance -- unfamiliar with ice, in a hurry, arrogance, or all of the above, or something else? And isn't it up the the pilots whether they take off at all -- I mean the tower can't make them take off if they don't think it's safe, can they?

 

[oldman]

Wow, Butterfly, you ask some tough questions, which I am glad to answer. During the NTSB investigation, it was learned that the Captain on the Air Florida flight was a habitual risk taker. Rule number one in flying is always to err on the safe side and forget the clock. The flight had already been delayed for over an hour and at that time, the Captain would have had to get out of line for takeoff in order to have his plane deiced a second time. Both pilots were aware that they had one-quarter to one-half of an inch of snow on the plane's wings. This should have been a giant red flag. The Captain "thought" that if he got his plane close enough to the American Airlines plane in front of him that the hot air coming out of the American's engines would melt the snow on his plane's wings. That's just plain foolish thinking. It may have melted it, but because of how cold it was, as soon as the American made his turn onto the runway and separated from the Air Florida plane, more than likely, the melted snow would refreeze.

In today's aviation world, deicing now takes place while the planes are lining up for takeoff, so no one has to get out of line. Depending on the size of the plane, it takes anywhere from 10-20 minutes to deice.

And, you are right. The Captain makes the call whether to takeoff at all or not. I have taken off in some really nasty weather, like in Chicago, Denver or Salt Lake City in January. If the runway is clear and my plane has just been deiced, I'm probably going. The only thing that may stop me is the wind. We have a tolerance schedule or chart that we go by. If the wind velocity is above the threshold limit, we can either abort the takeoff of get out of line and wait.

No one should ever have a fear of flying. If the plane is mechanically sound and the pilot is fully experienced, you're about as safe as being on the ground.

 

[StarSong]

Again I thank you for sharing your knowledge, OM. (Even if you are an "old man" I cannot bring myself to call you that.) Your words are wonderfully reassuring.

 

[Butterfly]

Again I thank you for sharing your knowledge, OM. (Even if you are an "old man" I cannot bring myself to call you that.) Your words are wonderfully reassuring.

I don't see "Old Man" as a pejorative. I spent a lot of my life associated with the military, and "Old Man" is the way the commander of an outfit was always referred to, even if he was nowhere near being old.

 

[Butterfly]

Wow, Butterfly, you ask some tough questions, which I am glad to answer. During the NTSB investigation, it was learned that the Captain on the Air Florida flight was a habitual risk taker. Rule number one in flying is always to err on the safe side and forget the clock. The flight had already been delayed for over an hour and at that time, the Captain would have had to get out of line for takeoff in order to have his plane deiced a second time. Both pilots were aware that they had one-quarter to one-half of an inch of snow on the plane's wings. This should have been a giant red flag. The Captain "thought" that if he got his plane close enough to the American Airlines plane in front of him that the hot air coming out of the American's engines would melt the snow on his plane's wings. That's just plain foolish thinking. It may have melted it, but because of how cold it was, as soon as the American made his turn onto the runway and separated from the Air Florida plane, more than likely, the melted snow would refreeze.

In today's aviation world, deicing now takes place while the planes are lining up for takeoff, so no one has to get out of line. Depending on the size of the plane, it takes anywhere from 10-20 minutes to deice.

And, you are right. The Captain makes the call whether to takeoff at all or not. I have taken off in some really nasty weather, like in Chicago, Denver or Salt Lake City in January. If the runway is clear and my plane has just been deiced, I'm probably going. The only thing that may stop me is the wind. We have a tolerance schedule or chart that we go by. If the wind velocity is above the threshold limit, we can either abort the takeoff of get out of line and wait.

No one should ever have a fear of flying. If the plane is mechanically sound and the pilot is fully experienced, you're about as safe as being on the ground.

I don't mean to ask hard questions! I am just very interested and have always wondered what goes on behind the scenes in flying. I really enjoy your stories and insights.

I wouldn't say I was ever really "afraid" of flying -- I used to fly quite a lot -- but just cautious, especially when the weather seemed lousy. I remember particularly one early morning flying out of Salt Lake City when it was snowing pretty hard I seriously considered just catching a later flight. I ultimately got on the morning flight, but didn't really relax till we were off the ground and under way.

 

[oldman]

What I mean by "asking a hard question" is that sometimes I have to expose the faults of another pilot, which is something that we try to prevent. However, when a pilot such as Larry is willing to risk the lives of his passengers and his own, then he should be called on it. If you would ever get the chance to go to into any pilot's meetings, you would see banners all around expressing safety as the number one priority that we need to be concerned with. Getting the passengers and the plane to its destination in a safe manner is always priority number one.

As for the moniker, -oldman-, I was 60 years old at the time and was either in the pilot's lounge or the dispatcher's room at Dulles International in D.C. and we were preparing to fly to the west coast. My First Officer, who was about 35 and just hired after leaving the military, came into the room and said very loud to me as I was standing across the room, "Hey, oldman, you ready to fly?" My supervisor heard him and called him into his office. After we had just boarded our plane, he apologized to me, but said that he was used to calling his senior officer "oldman" when he was in the military, only not to his face. He said that he thought that because I was the senior officer, he could do that in civilian life. I told him that I had no problem with it and actually kind of liked it. We always got along well and I enjoyed flying with him.

 

[rgp]

I don't see "Old Man" as a pejorative. I spent a lot of my life associated with the military, and "Old Man" is the way the commander of an outfit was always referred to, even if he was nowhere near being old.

My dad promoted quickly in the Army. He made Sargent while in Europe in 1942. His outfit called him "Old Man" even stenciled on the back of "his" chair........He was 25 @ the time.