Is America a third world country?

[gruntlabor]

You know what would help? Taking profit out of the rehab system, and having society take charge or it. Why? Because this is societies problem.

No-one denies that homelessness is a social problem.
In the U.S. I can be homeless if I choose. If I value that right, I had better avoid socialism, which unavoidably will lead to communism which will not respect my individual rights.
In my view I should not be allowed to make my nest in public places whose upkeep is paid for by taxpayers.
The homeless are dependent on the community. They 'use' the public in their various ways (as public and private property, liquor stores, garbage bins, begging, etc).
They don't want us, but they need us? No, let them find a place to be homeless where they are independent of the larger population. Good luck with that.
Hello churches and charities, time to earn your keep.

 

[Murrmurr]

We agree on the rehab issue. You know what would help? Taking profit out of the rehab system, and having society take charge or it. Why? Because this is societies problem.

I can only speak for California - I've lived in several other states, but that was before homelessness was widespread and "unsolvable" :

Dozens of private citizens in our major cities have stepped up to help the homeless, and were stopped by city councils and the governor....

A guy built a bunch of tiny homes and donated them; the city evicted the occupants, scooped up all the homes, and hauled them to the landfill where they were destroyed.
A lady built a beautiful tent city on her 10 acres, and served 2 meals/day from her kitchen; the city levied charges against her.
A barber went to homeless camps to give free haircuts and shaves; he got tickets.
A church opened a free "job-hunting clothing" shop; the city put the kibosh on it.

The list goes on, and it's a long one. City and state officials shut these people down under the threat of jail, fined most of them, and then immediately created tax-funded programs that performed exactly the same services. But most of those tax-funded services were never delivered, some lasted a few months, and a few got a great start but the state sold them and they're no longer free to the homeless. They became regular retail businesses.

We don't need to "get in their mindset," the problem is clear. Also clear is that the gov't has failed at every attempt to solve it. Californians voted YES three times over the past 20 years on bonds totaling over $6.2 billion to help the homeless, and the homeless population more than doubled over those 20 years.

You know the comprehensive rehabilitation program I described earlier? That exact idea was rejected by the state of Calif due to costs. The estimated cost of the comprehensive rehabilitation project was less than half of the $6.2 billion the state has squandered since the idea was proposed.

So what's really going on here? Clearly, it's greed. Homelessness and addiction creates revenue for the gov't. They're not looking for solutions, they're counting on soft hearts, a caring society, and when they run low on that, they count on people's anger and frustration...any reason to part with their money to make the problem go away. Yet, it persists.

In short, society/people have come up with solutions. Elected officials don't want solutions. If we solve the problem, the bank will close.

 

[VaughanJB]

We don't need to "get in their mindset," the problem is clear.

In short, society/people have come up with solutions. Elected officials don't want solutions. If we solve the problem, the bank will close.

I do not believe you can solve any problem without fully understanding it. and the motivations of those involved. To not try to understand their mindset means you're trying to impose a solution on what you think the problem is. For me, the problem isn't homeless people, it's the circumstances that leads one to be homeless. As you have alluded to, often they are common triggers.

I just don't think you can communicate with someone too well when you don't, metaphorically, speak their language. As you say, much has been tried and it hasn't worked.... could that be, in part, because we're not understanding and therefore tackling the real problems at the root of this?

So what's really going on here? Clearly, it's greed. Homelessness and addiction creates revenue for the gov't.

It's not just government. Private interests also have made money from rehab programs. It's worth remembering this problem isn't simply a California issue - it's widespread.

I wish I knew the answers. I wish I had a flash of a brilliant idea and a magic wand. It's a tough problem. It's also a problem that can never be 100% solved. I just don't know. I think part of the reason for the uncertainty is the belief that the issues here are many, and cuts across a lot of different spheres of interest. We're (as a society) lost touch with our need for cohesion.

 

[David777]

I haven't read posts in this thread beyond the first page much less posted. The thread title is taken from the video. The thread and video titles are misplaced and more about being click bait like many YouTube videos. The video at 18 minutes, rambles on repeating the same issues over and over, thus could have been say 5 minutes long. Even then she doesn't understand why.

is:
Is America a third world country?

Should be:
America doesn't support lower income and poor Americans.

The problem is Wall Street globalization with unregulated capitalism that began in the 1980s has been a race to make corporations and those involved in corporations rich. The huge 1986 Immigration legislation was ignored because corporations needed lower cost employees both to compete globally with low cost nations and to destroy American businesses that were in competition at the time. So due to their political and media puppets, allowed excessive amounts of illegal immigration. Even 9:11 didn't stop that greedy train.

Further, with the rise of the Internet, Wall Street banks and real estate corporation could now advertise to vast numbers of wealthy of the world that heretofore had been out of communication. Thus they passed laws allowing foreigners to buy our residential real estate for both investment and to migrate to, no questions asked, into our society. A horrible issue along the Pacific Coast as such drives up real estate values. In British Columbia, they finally passed laws preventing that but in the USA that is about the last thing any news media will mention.

Those building residential real estate through puppet politicians, made sure they could continue to build mostly only expensive McMansions for highest profits. City governments loved that because they could jack up government salaries to ridiculous levels many are now at, well above that of the private sector. Greased politicians in cities made sure builders could build cheaply in unfit places due to weather and wildfires. Heck after they sold housing, bank fat cats and builders were long gone laughing, to play golf in Palm Beach and Palm Springs.

Worse they allowed opened borders to vast numbers poor desperate immigrants, killed legislation requiring Visa tracking and biometric identity for visitors, made sure any immigration legislation quietly died in backroom deals. That was terrific for home builders only wanting to build large expensive housing that found the poor squeezed out lower middle class housing, that in turn like musical chairs, only found expensive middle class housing to live in, and in turn pushed middle classes in much higher cost upper class housing than they would otherwise choose to.

Unexpectedly, that lack of lower class housing, created massive growing homelessness. For that issue the favorite lie has been "We need to build more housing!" Well what are they building...still almost all large housing. And the lie there has been, "Well, we can't make a profit with building lower cost housing, but sure we will build a few low cost units to make the advocates happy, haha." And of course now Wall Street is advertising to the rich of the world how to invest in our REIT's because we can buy out all the sitting duck low cost trailer parks since residents don't own the land and jack up rents.

 

[VaughanJB]

No-one denies that homelessness is a social problem.
In the U.S. I can be homeless if I choose. If I value that right, I had better avoid socialism, which unavoidably will lead to communism which will not respect my individual rights.
In my view I should not be allowed to make my nest in public places whose upkeep is paid for by taxpayers.
The homeless are dependent on the community. They 'use' the public in their various ways (as public and private property, liquor stores, garbage bins, begging, etc).
They don't want us, but they need us? No, let them find a place to be homeless where they are independent of the larger population. Good luck with that.
Hello churches and charities, time to earn your keep.

Don't know why you've become political about it.

Most people who are homeless do not simply wake up one day and think, "you know, I think I'll go homeless." It's not a choice.

You and I disagree. clearly. I like to take the *I* out of it - because if homeless people bother me so much, I can move to where there aren't any - right?

 

[Murrmurr]

I do not believe you can solve any problem without fully understanding it. and the motivations of those involved. To not try to understand their mindset means you're trying to impose a solution on what you think the problem is. For me, the problem isn't homeless people, it's the circumstances that leads one to be homeless. As you have alluded to, often they are common triggers.

I just don't think you can communicate with someone too well when you don't, metaphorically, speak their language. As you say, much has been tried and it hasn't worked.... could that be, in part, because we're not understanding and therefore tackling the real problems at the root of this?

It seems you believe the reasons behind homelessness are more complex than they actually are. In the case of addicts who are homeless because they can't get a job and function "normally" in society, do we prioritize solving the issues that got him/her addicted in the first place, or get him/her clean? I don't think anyone can have a productive conversation with that person until they are clean, and I don't think fully understanding the motivation behind their addiction will get them clean any quicker.

Mental health counseling is part of the comprehensive rehab program. That's where you let the addict talk about the whats and whys of their addiction. They need to be clear-minded to do that, so detox first, and counseling all the while they go through the rest of the program.

You know, a lot of addicts used for the first time just because they were at a party, just wanted to try it, just because their best friend was into it. Addiction is not always the result of a trauma or crappy childhood or whatever. Sometimes it's the result of just one stupid decision.

It's not just government. Private interests also have made money from rehab programs.

And why shouldn't they? They provide a service. And they don't bill working people, they bill the patient.

I wish I knew the answers. I wish I had a flash of a brilliant idea and a magic wand. It's a tough problem. It's also a problem that can never be 100% solved. I just don't know. I think part of the reason for the uncertainty is the belief that the issues here are many, and cuts across a lot of different spheres of interest. We're (as a society) lost touch with our need for cohesion.

I believe the problem can be solved. In a number of ways, too, including (but not limited to) an improved education system, free skills training, bringing back paid apprenticeship programs, returning the Employment Development Dept to its former glory, and privatizing family counseling, mental health, and drug rehab...because when the gov't takes those over, they fail.

Personally, I don't believe our society lost its cohesiveness, I believe it was taken. And that might have been the unintended outcome of too much "interference"...but maybe not.

 

[VaughanJB]

It seems you believe the reasons behind homelessness are more complex than they actually are. In the case of addicts who are homeless because they can't get a job and function "normally" in society, do we prioritize solving the issues that got him/her addicted in the first place, or get him/her clean? I don't think anyone can have a productive conversation with that person until they are clean, and I don't think fully understanding the motivation behind their addiction will get them clean any quicker.

Respectfully, I think you're being too reductionist. I also think understanding motivations is KEY in helping someone. I'll give an example from my life. I know someone who was a terrible drunk. He'd drink to oblivion. His drinking went on to physical addiction. He was a mean, violent drunk.

He eventually stopped drinking, but his meanness and violent nature remained. Turned out it wasn't the drink itself, it was the deep underlying reasons of why he was self-medicating. The answer was never: Just stop drinking. It was never, just stop and things will improve. They didn't improve.

For street drugs, we should face a stark reality - taking recreational drugs to alter our minds is fully accepted in society today. And it's not young folk. No details from me, but I was sitting around a table at a pub with some acquaintances in their 50's and one guy said "man, my wife and I love spending a weekend at home with some wine and Cocaine." Turned out there was a normal routine. When did such a thing become acceptable? (Yes, I realize I must have been living under a rock at the time).

I also worked with people, which I've mentioned before, who worked (and played) long long hours in the City of London. I asked how they could possibly do it, and the answer was the same - just snort some of this.

In order to "cure" someone, you must address their ills. Without knowing what their ills are, we're applying band aids. Either way, what we're doing now isn't working, is it?

And why shouldn't they? They provide a service. And they don't bill working people, they bill the patient.

Oh, again this is easy to answer from firsthand experience. I paid for someone to get Methadone as they recovered from a Heroin addiction. I thought I'd need to pay for three months, six months, a year? But it went on for YEARS. Inquiring, there simply was no benefit for the provider of the service (the Methadone clinic) to ween their clients off Methadone. They made money from it. Personally, profit and healthcare is, at best, an agreement made in hell (with few exceptions).

I believe the problem can be solved. In a number of ways, too, including (but not limited to) an improved education system, free skills training, bringing back paid apprenticeship programs, returning the Employment Development Dept to its former glory, and privatizing family counseling, mental health, and drug rehab...because when the gov't takes those over, they fail.

Yes, privatization is not the answer for me, we'll have to agree to disagree. In fact, I think it both causes harm, and drives bad outcomes.

Personally, I don't believe our society lost its cohesiveness, I believe it was taken. And that might have been the unintended outcome of too much "interference"...but maybe not.

Not for me. We gave it up. We allowed it to happen. We always went for the easiest solution. We put *I* in front of "we" at every juncture, and here we are. We have given up the idea that we all matter, and put in place the idea that if I am okay, everything else is okay and no-one can tell me what to do. Society is always about freedom within a set of rules. Those rules have become watered down.

Sorry to repeat a stat, but the US spends around $38bn on the war on drugs every year. Yet drugs are everywhere, and it's acceptable to use them in social circles. I'm suggesting that a) What we're doing does not work; b) Drugs aren't the sole issue.

Apologies to those who don't like long posts. I invite Murmur to PM if necessary to protect the mental health of others.