Flarbalard
Senior Member
IMO, the Kama Sutra needs a much better PR firm, and maybe some updated illustrations.
Is Faith a Gift?
- Thread starter spectratg
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VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
This is, imo, an exaggeration. I admonished no-one. I have respect for those with faith, even if I disagree with them.
And as an agnostic, of course the Pope would disagree. In fact, anyone with faith will disagree, which is to be expected and presents no surprises.
Science does not talk to religion. It simply experiments, discovers, and moves on. Science is about truth, verifiable truth. That's it. It has no opinion on whether there is a God or not.
I think you tread close to being patronizing (in the best possible way). I'm agnostic, and you're correct, I've never found faith. I suspect, though can't be certain, that I will never have your faith. But I will do so honestly, with thought. For some reason, God has not spoken to me, as such. But in the rush to lay responsibility at the feet of non-believers, believers will claim he did try, I just didn't hear him. So it goes.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
I can't speak for you. I don't think I lack empathy. I don't think empathy is the realm of religion. In fact, I suspect the opposite. I don't know what you mean by "relied solely on the processes of science". Science does not seek to replace a God. It does not seek to disprove a God.
Can't really speak to this either. As an agnostic, do I think I'm superior to people with faith? Not at all. I do however think that those with faith tend to look down on the likes of me. See, the thing is, from everything I know, at the point of death, we simply cease to be. This outcome will be the same for everyone, with faith or without. Of course, at that point we can't let others know the reality.
Naturally
Well-known Member
- Location
- Corner of Walk 'n Don't Walk
I can think of at least one real person who is a waste of time
imo faith is a gift but it can be ignored ; not recognized or refused - there that "free will" clause kicks in again - it can be refused. In 'religious' faith it can never be demanded or forced or stolen or falsely manufactured in anyway to work effectively
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VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
The Bible's "free will" seems to me to be an excuse for the fact that not everyone believes. From a God's perspective, there is no point to free will. No-one chooses eternal damnation.
If you go back to the beginning the contractual deal was " i will make you in our image [long debate on that one] and I give you free will" - that is where my points are selected from - do I know why NO - there are many mysteries to yet unfold. The logical scientific mind always goes seeking for answers at every turn of the walk - the bible study mind accept the unknown; and the unclear
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
I made no such deal. I am of my parents image.
Naturally
Well-known Member
- Location
- Corner of Walk 'n Don't Walk
Your post touches on the tension between divine sovereignty and human responsibility. As @smiley alluded to, free will is often seen as essential because it allows for genuine love and relationship with God. If God were to force belief, it wouldn't be true love or a voluntary relationship, it would be more like control or manipulation.
It's said, free will is part of the larger purpose of creating beings who can experience real joy and communion with Him. If love is the goal, then free will makes sense as the only way to allow for real connection.
The idea of eternal damnation is particularly tough to reconcile with a loving God, especially if someone feels that no one would willingly choose such a fate. But hell is not something God imposes on people, rather, something they choose by rejecting God and His love throughout their lives.
Maybe hell is just a place where people, in a sense, get what they've always wanted: a life lived, and perhaps eternally so, without God.
He ... gives us choices.
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Sorry use of the English language can get tricky - no you are right in as much you didn't make any such deal nether did I actually - but adult full immersion baptism changes the equation later in life somewhat - we are making then an adult decision to go back to the future?? [joke]
Genesis 1 v 26 - this was after all else had been prepared as for humans and dinner guests? - It never ceases to amaze me as I pick up my worn and torn bible and leaf through it - still the most sold book in the world and the words never change in substance - [we do at times?]
Genesis 1 v 26 - this was after all else had been prepared as for humans and dinner guests? - It never ceases to amaze me as I pick up my worn and torn bible and leaf through it - still the most sold book in the world and the words never change in substance - [we do at times?]
Mitch86
Member
- Location
- Connecticut, USA
I like to listen to music about Christ for many hours every day. However, I also believe that, when we die, we simply cease to exist. I doubt if a Heaven, if real, could absorb the trillions of people who have died in the last 6,000 years.
When we cease to exist, all pain and problems do go away. Thus, we definitely "rest in peace" when we die. If we never died, our suffering from pain and paralysis would be horrendous.
When we cease to exist, all pain and problems do go away. Thus, we definitely "rest in peace" when we die. If we never died, our suffering from pain and paralysis would be horrendous.
yes we do "die" and we "cease to exist" in our frail human forms - but many believe in "spiritual re-births and being "born again" so to speak. I remember one of our past dear members talking about angels a lot and how these angelic forms assisted many humans in their moments of distress?
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
I hope I didn't give you the impression that all atheists think they are superior of people of faith, but I certainly believed that I knew the real truth (i.e. that God is a fiction devised by humankind). I would never have told any person of faith that they were deluded because that would be very rude indeed.
My posts are not intended to be barbs. They are simply my thinking when I was a much younger woman.
Also, I see that you use the word agnostic. I was talking about myself as an atheist. Very different mindset.
there are many metaphors for this scenario - one might be "we are always invited; the door is always open ; but we are never forced to listen or heed the invitation and we are focused on other worldly things too much"?
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
So, with a God who who has the power to create whatever he chooses, and to have any process or outcome he chooses, he decides to allow us to, effectively, fail the test. This makes little sense to me. I'm trying to think of something, anything, I would design and build myself where I left in the option to fail.
In other words, I hear what you're saying, but it doesn't ring true, nor make much sense. Instead, I think the far more likely thing that is happening is that some people have a belief, and conform to the belief system, and some don't. By nature, we're not inclined to believe in God. It's largely a societal construct where we build community around ideas and ideals. But how is the teaching of Gods going to explain naysayers? Easy - have "free will", and brush it aside. It strikes me as a flippant explanation of those who don't believe.
The question begins earlier in the argument. God must have created hell, or at the very least, allowed (and allow) it exist. What kind, loving, God would do such a thing? It seems unnecessarily cruel and mean. Again, given all the options and the power, this is the solution God decided was appropriate? This - for me - makes him a very flawed creator. One does not care for a garden, but leave half of it in decay and unkempt, and then blame the seeds for landing in the wrong place. IMO.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Immersion is a ritual, and nothing more. It has a significance for those taking part, but for something like myself (and yes, I was christened as a child) it's just a bit of theater. Quotes from the Bible are pointless, since they lead to circular reasoning. The Bible is true, because loo9k what the Bible says! etc. Quotes from the Bible are the least convincing parts of the argument, imo.
In the beginning there was no God.
Me too! Religious music - at the old stuff - is an amazing listen.
Which, translated, means: You can choose to believe at any time, or don't bother.
Capt Lightning
Well-known Member
- Location
- Historic Buchan, Scotland
I sometimes wonder why a 'god', if such a thing existed, would bother to create a universe and everything in it some 17 billion years ago and then let if 'stew' until 4 billion odd years ago, primitive life came along? I get impatient waiting for the kettle to boil, but 13 billion years?
Not only that, but it's another it's a long long time till humans emerged to ask these sorts of questions.
Maybe it doesn't really matter. We're here and we have to make the best of it, but it would be nice to know why?
Not only that, but it's another it's a long long time till humans emerged to ask these sorts of questions.
Maybe it doesn't really matter. We're here and we have to make the best of it, but it would be nice to know why?
Knight
Well-known Member
My doubt comes from the freedom of choice option expressed in the bible conflicting with other verses.
"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
Then there is this
Mental retardation is present in about 2 to 3 percent of the population. It can be defined as cognitive ability that is markedly below average level and a decreased ability to adapt to one's environment. The onset of the condition occurs during the developmental period, i.e., gestation through age 18 years. There may be as many as 10-30 million severely and about 60-80 million mildly or moderately mentally retarded children in the world.
Doesn't sound like not to harm you to me.
Faith that a creator billions of years old has a place somewhere outside our universe takes nothing away from me. It makes no difference in my life. For me discussion on guidance derived by belief in the bible is interesting. What puzzles me is how only the promise of good like the above [ “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." ] seems to surface by those with faith.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Isn't the answer that the Earth - and by association the universe - is in fact only 4bn years old? There are some religious folk who believe that man and dinosaurs lived side by side.
Still, taking your point as fact, isn't it amazing that we now have pictures from the center of the universe?
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
God killed a whole lot of people in the Old Testament. We can't know precisely how many, but he effectively killed a lot of people.
The Hand of God
By Elsie J. Doll
My heart cried in shame
For I’d stepped away from
The pure sewn path of God.
Aching with repentance
And quiet desperation,
I lifted my hand in search
Of the impress of His grace
Fearing my unworthiness would
Keep me from the touch
Of even His fingertips,
But oh the glory that overcame me
And taught me His enduring love
When I felt the whole if His forgiving
Hand enclose the whole of mine.
By Elsie J. Doll
My heart cried in shame
For I’d stepped away from
The pure sewn path of God.
Aching with repentance
And quiet desperation,
I lifted my hand in search
Of the impress of His grace
Fearing my unworthiness would
Keep me from the touch
Of even His fingertips,
But oh the glory that overcame me
And taught me His enduring love
When I felt the whole if His forgiving
Hand enclose the whole of mine.
Knight
Well-known Member
From the description in todays justice system that would be 1st. degree murder. Somehow that goes overlooked when using the bible as a source of good.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
A lot of the Old Testament gets swept under the proverbial carpet. Yet, some parts of the Old Testament are included, as convenient. For example, the Ten Commandments are in the OT. Cherry picking comes to mind.
Capt Lightning
Well-known Member
- Location
- Historic Buchan, Scotland
Not everything came into existence at the 'big bang'. Stars, galaxies, planets etc. are born, grow and die over billions of years. The observable universe is about 18 Bn. years old and the Earth is only about 4.5 bn years old.
Yes, it is remarkable how far back in time we can see .