Is long term Care a smart decision?

mathjak107

Senior Member
because by the time you realize `something happened to you it is to late for you to have choices .

my dad had a paralyzing stroke that left him like a vegetable in a second . he spent 6 years in a home whether he wanted to or not .

it impoverished his wife .

these discussions are not about us hanging on longer , it is about our stay at home spouse not being impoverished and continuing with their life. your view of this is from the wrong spouse. it is not about the spouse needing care . it is about the spouse that still has a life to live and is fine .
 
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needshave

Member
Location
Ohio
Original Poster
MathJak,

Thanks for your response. I have to agree with all you have stated. The one person that I know of that is self insuring his medical future, has done pretty much what you have defined and sold his rental properties and put all those monies in a bucket account. All of the properties were sold but one, that property is a rental and feeds his medical bucket account on a monthly basis. This bucket is a stand alone account and is to be used only for medical purposes. He is on medicare so preventive maintenance is handled and not affecting or subtracting from this account.
I dont know what a partnership plan is! It may be something available in NY but not in Ohio, where I reside. I hope to be able to investigate to see if it is available, it sounds like a great plan and you have it well though out.

Thanks for your feed back. If you have any info on the partnership plan, please let me know.
 

Don M.

Well-known Member
Location
central Missouri
these discussions are not about us hanging on longer , it is about our stay at home spouse not being impoverished and continuing with their life. your view of this is from the wrong spouse. it is not about the spouse needing care . it is about the spouse that still has a life to live and is fine .
That's right. An elderly spouse having to take care of his/her mate can quickly put both of them in a precarious position.
 

needshave

Member
Location
Ohio
Original Poster
That's right. An elderly spouse having to take care of his/her mate can quickly put both of them in a precarious position.
Don, You are so right. So very True. My in-laws are experiencing that very problem right now. My father law fell just this morning. He also fell a few months ago on my mother in law and broke her arm. A perfect example of what you were saying.
 

oldmontana

Member
Location
Montana
Is long term Care a smart decision?

I think it is. If you want to protect your assets if you need LTC. If you have, like 5 million in liquid assets you can self insure.


LTC is insurance that you hope you will not need, like home insurance.
 
Honestly, if the OP is 70, LTCi is going to be way beyond his affordability.

As another member posted, there are fewer companies in the market. When we bought our LTCi policies there were over 100 companies selling this product. There are now.....

12 - in the entire U.S.

It is simply not that profitable. Don't forget you AND the insurance company are guessing as to IF you will need care and if so, HOW MUCH care you will need and for HOW LONG.

Their viability as an ongoing carrier depends on them guessing correctly. Genworth did not, and as a result GE Corp. has had to transfer millions of $$$$$ into their funding to handle claims.

The sweet spot for LTCi policies is now under 50 yrs of age when applying. And you need to be in very good health, with good genetics, on few prescriptives.

As for "wasting money", even with premium increases, my spouse and I (separate policies) have spent approx. $60K on premiums over 21 yrs. Is that a lot of $$$$$? Yes.

But Skilled Care Nursing facilities are minimum $10K/month where we live, and go as high as $17K now. Home care, priced on a per hour basis, is more costly than SCN. It is, in fact, the healthcare segment that has seen the fastest rise in costs over the last six years.

Our policies each pay for $120K/yr, with 5% compounded inflation increase annually and unlimited period. They are older policies and no longer sold. Needless to say, we would not give them up readily!

I have never understood people who claim "if I just save the money I'd spend on an LTCi policy and invest it, it'll come out the same". Because that simply isn't true. You are assuming you will not need care until 20, 25, or 30 yrs down the road.

When 25% of people receiving Social Security disability are under age 60, that should tell you that if you are part of a couple, you need to seriously consider what to do if something happens to one of you.

Death is easy, compared to long term disability/chronic illness.
 

mathjak107

Senior Member
MathJak,

Thanks for your response. I have to agree with all you have stated. The one person that I know of that is self insuring his medical future, has done pretty much what you have defined and sold his rental properties and put all those monies in a bucket account. All of the properties were sold but one, that property is a rental and feeds his medical bucket account on a monthly basis. This bucket is a stand alone account and is to be used only for medical purposes. He is on medicare so preventive maintenance is handled and not affecting or subtracting from this account.
I dont know what a partnership plan is! It may be something available in NY but not in Ohio, where I reside. I hope to be able to investigate to see if it is available, it sounds like a great plan and you have it well though out.

Thanks for your feed back. If you have any info on the partnership plan, please let me know.
Ohio has partnership plans ..they have a dollar for a dollar plans not total asset...for every dollar medicaid spends on your care after the insurance runs out , a dollar in assets is preserved.


Income & Asset Protection ohio

An Ohio Partnership for Long-Term Care qualified policy provides you, as the purchaser, with the right to apply for Medicaid under modified eligibility rules that include a special feature called an ‘asset disregard’.

This allows you to keep assets that would otherwise not be allowed if you need to apply, and qualify, for Medicaid in order to receive additional long-term care services. The amount of assets Medicaid will disregard is equal to the amount of the benefits you actually receive under your long term care Partnership qualified policy.

Since these policies must include inflation protection, the amount of the benefits you receive can be higher than the amount of insurance protection you originally purchased.

If you have a Partnership-qualified long term care insurance policy and receive $300,000 in benefits, you can apply for Medicaid and, if eligible, retain $300,000 worth of assets over and above the State’s Medicaid asset threshold. In most states the asset threshold is $2,000 for a single person. Asset thresholds for married couples are typically more generous.

Years ago you could protect your assets by creating a trust, but today only an irrevocable trust would be exempt and it would still be subject to the 60-month "look back" period. To be exempt, assets must be transferred 60 months before you apply for Medicaid. (We won't know with 100% certainty what will happen 60 seconds from now let alone 60 months.)

Under a qualified partnership policy, personal assets in the amount of the total benefits paid are disregarded when Medicaid asset eligibility is calculated. For each dollar of benefits paid, one dollar of assets is not counted toward the eligibility limit. This means you get to keep those assets and don't have to spend them before qualifying for Medicaid.

With a Partnership policy it also means that the state will not seek to recover money spent for your care from your estate. Estate recovery means that the state can require repayment from your estate for any costs paid by Medicaid. Thirty states have filial laws that that give the state the right to require your children to reimburse Medicaid for your expenses.



https://www.partnershipforlongtermcare.com/ohio-partnership/index.html
 

mathjak107

Senior Member
Honestly, if the OP is 70, LTCi is going to be way beyond his affordability.

As another member posted, there are fewer companies in the market. When we bought our LTCi policies there were over 100 companies selling this product. There are now.....

12 - in the entire U.S.

It is simply not that profitable. Don't forget you AND the insurance company are guessing as to IF you will need care and if so, HOW MUCH care you will need and for HOW LONG.

Their viability as an ongoing carrier depends on them guessing correctly. Genworth did not, and as a result GE Corp. has had to transfer millions of $$$$$ into their funding to handle claims.

The sweet spot for LTCi policies is now under 50 yrs of age when applying. And you need to be in very good health, with good genetics, on few prescriptives.

As for "wasting money", even with premium increases, my spouse and I (separate policies) have spent approx. $60K on premiums over 21 yrs. Is that a lot of $$$$$? Yes.

But Skilled Care Nursing facilities are minimum $10K/month where we live, and go as high as $17K now. Home care, priced on a per hour basis, is more costly than SCN. It is, in fact, the healthcare segment that has seen the fastest rise in costs over the last six years.

Our policies each pay for $120K/yr, with 5% compounded inflation increase annually and unlimited period. They are older policies and no longer sold. Needless to say, we would not give them up readily!

I have never understood people who claim "if I just save the money I'd spend on an LTCi policy and invest it, it'll come out the same". Because that simply isn't true. You are assuming you will not need care until 20, 25, or 30 yrs down the road.

When 25% of people receiving Social Security disability are under age 60, that should tell you that if you are part of a couple, you need to seriously consider what to do if something happens to one of you.

Death is easy, compared to long term disability/chronic illness.
The policies are priced so you paying in future dollars about one years cost of care by the time you each the sweet spot ...

You are right , care can be needed at anytime ...my co-worker at age 55 was painting .. he fell off the ladder and broke his hip and wrist ...he had a stroke during hip surgery ....he was paralyzed and needed care ...his family was devastated financially
 

Liberty

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Since I'm married and the concern for long range care is 2fold, we are trying to look out for each other that monies are available for the care of each other.
It's impossible to predict
Needshave...have had a recent, personal happening with respect to a good friend and her family in Ohio. There are a couple of things that might be very valuable for you to know...since state laws vary. If you'd like to PM me (start a conversation), I'd be happy to share what I learned while being a sounding board for my friend & family. Don't want to take up space here on the general forum when others probably wouldn't care about Ohio issues.
 

Fyrefox

Member
I have a long term care plan in place. It's not cheap, but both of my parents died slow deaths of progressive incapacitation, and I'm found to have a one in three chance of winding up as they did. My mother's care alone ran $7,000 a month in New Jersey, and that was years ago. It's all a gamble, and while I don't hope for death on the installment plan, I found it prudent in light of my history to prepare through insurance for that contingency.
 

mathjak107

Senior Member
insurers can tell us how many people a year will die , they can tell us how many will need long term care .

but they can't tell us who . so while statistics mean something to insurers and data banks we can only have two outcomes .

it is either us or it isn't .... someone has to have the misfortune of being the unlucky one . we just don't know if it is us .

i worked to hard and spent a life time accumulating what we did so i don't leave those things that can be devastating to us if it is us on the unlucky side by leaving things unplanned and unmitigated
 

StarSong

Well-known Member
When 25% of people receiving Social Security disability are under age 60, that should tell you that if you are part of a couple, you need to seriously consider what to do if something happens to one of you.

Death is easy, compared to long term disability/chronic illness.
To be fair, a lot of SSDI recipients are scammers who've hired shady TV-advertising attorneys that have figured out how to win their cases.
There's also no way to know how SSDI recipients need or get caregiver assistance.
 
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mathjak107

Senior Member
To be fair, a lot of SSDI recipients are scammers who've hired shady TV-advertising attorneys that have figured out how to win their cases.
There's also no way to know how SSDI recipients need or get caregiver assistance.
Boy is that true about fraud ....ssdi became the new unemployment insurance.....it is filled with fraud ...just one person Eric conn and a fraudulent judge put through 1/2 billion in claims for people already denied ......money had to be pulled from ss retirement to fund Ssdi which went broke
 
To be fair, a lot of SSDI recipients are scammers who've hired shady TV-advertising attorneys that have figured out how to win their cases.
There's also no way to know how SSDI recipients need or get caregiver assistance.
And a lot of people, like my sister, are genuinely disabled and deserve all the help they can get. She got SSDI (which BTW took her forever to get through the process) from age about 60 through 65, when Social Security kicked in. My niece got SSDI benefits in the last months before she died. Hers was a shortened process because she was certified as terminally ill with no chance of recovery.

With respect, I believe the idea of scammers and shady lawyers is pretty much a false and outdated belief. The process of qualifying is a long (can take years from application to approval) and onerous one and nowdays, no matter how shady a lawyer is, he/she can't get around the truth or falsity of verified medical records and certified independent medical exams and rehabilitation and evaluation records.
 

mathjak107

Senior Member
And a lot of people, like my sister, are genuinely disabled and deserve all the help they can get. She got SSDI (which BTW took her forever to get through the process) from age about 60 through 65, when Social Security kicked in. My niece got SSDI benefits in the last months before she died. Hers was a shortened process because she was certified as terminally ill with no chance of recovery.

With respect, I believe the idea of scammers and shady lawyers is pretty much a false and outdated belief. The process of qualifying is a long (can take years from application to approval) and onerous one and nowdays, no matter how shady a lawyer is, he/she can't get around the truth or falsity of verified medical records and certified independent medical exams and rehabilitation and evaluation records.
I think last year they busted over 100 here in ny involved in fraudulent Ssdi claims Either working for ss or doctors ,lawyers ,etc and they said that is the tip of the iceberg
 

Liberty

Senior Member
Location
Texas
And a lot of people, like my sister, are genuinely disabled and deserve all the help they can get. She got SSDI (which BTW took her forever to get through the process) from age about 60 through 65, when Social Security kicked in. My niece got SSDI benefits in the last months before she died. Hers was a shortened process because she was certified as terminally ill with no chance of recovery.

With respect, I believe the idea of scammers and shady lawyers is pretty much a false and outdated belief. The process of qualifying is a long (can take years from application to approval) and onerous one and nowdays, no matter how shady a lawyer is, he/she can't get around the truth or falsity of verified medical records and certified independent medical exams and rehabilitation and evaluation records.
So true, Star...have 2 I know that got denied and then hired the attorneys. One has now got it and the other is still pending after a couple years I think. They also re-evaluate those now that get disability early. Have a friend that got it for both SS and VA and SS will re-evaluate her in a couple years, because she was so young. With the VA its 8 years I think.
 

mathjak107

Senior Member
The problem is the corrupt people on the inside that are helping others commit fraud . When they do it usually involves lots of dollars going out..

About 3.5 Million of the 10.1 Million on Disability have mental disorders. Of those, 1.5 Million have "Mood Disorders" and the rest are autistic, mentally disabled, have congenital brain defects, head injuries, or are schizophrenic.

Social Security doesn't require the 1.5 Million with "Mood Disorders" to be involved in any treatment program, but they should. They should be required to attend weekly treatment sessions, and if they fail to do so, they need to be terminated.
 
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StarSong

Well-known Member
And a lot of people, like my sister, are genuinely disabled and deserve all the help they can get. She got SSDI (which BTW took her forever to get through the process) from age about 60 through 65, when Social Security kicked in. My niece got SSDI benefits in the last months before she died. Hers was a shortened process because she was certified as terminally ill with no chance of recovery.

With respect, I believe the idea of scammers and shady lawyers is pretty much a false and outdated belief.
The process of qualifying is a long (can take years from application to approval) and onerous one and nowdays, no matter how shady a lawyer is, he/she can't get around the truth or falsity of verified medical records and certified independent medical exams and rehabilitation and evaluation records.
I wish that were true. Turn on daytime TV sometime and see how many lawyers are pitching their services to people who were turned down for SSDI. They wouldn't be doing that unless there was plenty of money to be made and a reasonably good success rate.
 

Liberty

Senior Member
Location
Texas
I wish that were true. Turn on daytime TV sometime and see how many lawyers are pitching their services to people who were turned down for SSDI. They wouldn't be doing that unless there was plenty of money to be made and a reasonably good success rate.
Both of the cases I've been familiar with lately HAD to get lawyers because they were turned down. I know of the physical issues with both of these people. One had worked for our company for years and than was my housekeeper for many more years. As far as I know, it was about the proper form explanations regarding the doctor interfaces and so forth. The lawyers seem to know how to do that...the legitimate ones, too. As far as I know there are only a couple lawyers - good ones - specializing in this around the area.
 
To be fair, a lot of SSDI recipients are scammers who've hired shady TV-advertising attorneys that have figured out how to win their cases.
There's also no way to know how SSDI recipients need or get caregiver assistance.
Actually, applying for SSDI will get you an almost automatic turn-down. On average it takes 12-18 months to receive benefits. With the elimination of the SS budget surplus, it will get even harder to receive SSDI.

I used that stat not to imply any direct correlation to LTCi, so I apologize if my post gave that impression. What I AM saying is that as mathjak points out above, nobody EVER knows what may happen to them in the future. To not even try to estimate your future financial risks does no favors to you, your family, or your partner.

I worked in the insurance industry for 15 yrs and in financial services for 20 yrs. We purchased LTCi plans because I estimated that we had average mortality but above-average morbidity risks.

When we "ran the numbers", it was clear that the disability/long-term illness of one spouse would have a severe negative impact on the other spouse. We are not wealthy, but we have enough assets that there is absolutely no financial assistance available unless the other spouse is forced to seriously reduce their lifestyle.

YMMV.
 

mathjak107

Senior Member
The problems with the Ssdi fraud is everyone involves big numbers ....a side from Eric conn doing a half a billion for people who should never have been signed off on via his corrupt judge buddy we just has a nypd cop get 638k fraudulently.

https://oig.ssa.gov/audits-and-investigations/investigations/april15-nyc-disability-fraud

another ny woman just got 14 months in prison for fraud

https://oig.ssa.gov/audits-and-investigations/investigations/jan31-ny-fraud

so far 138 have been caught in Ssdi fraud here in nyc including insiders who work for ssa

https://oig.ssa.gov/audits-and-investigations/investigations/feb25-nyc

over 100 nyc cops and fireman busted in Ssdi fraud
https://www.newsmax.com/economy/new-york-social-security-fraud-disability/2014/01/07/id/545716/

This is just a smidgeon of what goes on and this is one city ....Ssdi was drained and went bust ....they had to divert money from ss retirement funds to keep paying the huge amount of claims ....what is scary is all of those who aren’t caught.

It is a system where those who really deserve it have a hard time but fraud runs rampant ..there are always people internally ready to take payoffs to enrich themselves
 

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