Is society collapsing?

[Irwin]

Societal collapse (also known as civilizational collapse) is the fall of a complex human society characterized by the loss of cultural identity and of socioeconomic complexity, the downfall of government, and the rise of violence. Possible causes of a societal collapse include natural catastrophe, war, pestilence, famine, population decline, and mass migration. A collapsed society may revert to a more primitive state (Dark Ages), be absorbed into a stronger society, or completely disappear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_collapse

 

[Irwin]

We're witnessing the downfall of government and have been for a few decades now where gridlock is the norm and working across the aisle is almost unheard of. The Constitution has become just a set of recommendations that can be disregarded at will by politicians, with no repercussions.

In other words, the rule of law is breaking down. Government soon will exist for one reason and that is to benefit large corporations and the wealthy. Ordinary people will have no say or representation. The "safety net" will soon vanish along with worker protections and a minimum wage. Poverty will become widespread.

As Gerald Celente, publisher of TrendsJournal, once wrote (or he might have said it), "When people have nothing left to lose, and they've lost everything, they lose it.” People are going to start "losing it" regularly. We're going to see an increase in violence, which will be met with increased government force. We may see our country become a police state to manage the discontent and keep us in line.

Just a preliminary post. I'm just starting to think about this topic.

 

[Murrmurr]

"Government soon will exist for one reason and that is to benefit large corporations and the wealthy. Ordinary people will have no say or representation."

That should read Government exists for one reason... and Ordinary people have no say...etc. There's no "soon will" or "will have" about it.

And this part - We're going to see an increase in violence, which will be met with increased government force - has already started.

But I'm not a doomsayer. Change is inevitable due to events over the past 16 months, coupled with greedy, self-gratifying politicians and their crony capitalism. (Let's be clear on the meaning of crony capitalism: an economic system in which businesses thrive not as a result of free enterprise, but rather through collusion between the elite business class and the elite political class. Some people seem confused about that.)

Change will be a gradual, unpleasant experience, but I don't think the country will collapse. Not exactly. It will just change, and I honestly believe it will change for the better....eventually.

 

[deesierra]

"Government soon will exist for one reason and that is to benefit large corporations and the wealthy. Ordinary people will have no say or representation."

That should read Government exists for one reason... and Ordinary people have no say...etc. There's no "soon will" or "will have" about it.

And this part - We're going to see an increase in violence, which will be met with increased government force - has already started.

But I'm not a doomsayer. Change is inevitable due to events over the past 16 months, coupled with greedy, self-gratifying politicians and their crony capitalism. (Let's be clear on the meaning of crony capitalism: an economic system in which businesses thrive not as a result of free enterprise, but rather through collusion between the elite business class and the elite political class. Some people seem confused about that.)

Change will be a gradual, unpleasant experience, but I don't think the country will collapse. Not exactly. It will just change, and I honestly believe it will change for the better....eventually.

I truly hope that your belief that this country will change for the better becomes a reality. I love my country, but I'm not hopeful for its future as a country that continues to command worlwide respect. I'm 70 years old. I don't wish to live long enough to see socialism replace capitalism.

 

[ronaldj]

All animals are equal.......some animals are more equal then other.

 

[horseless carriage]

Studying the demise of historic civilisations can tell us how much risk we face today, says collapse expert Luke Kemp. Worryingly, the signs are worsening.

Great civilisations are not murdered. Instead, they take their own lives. So concluded the historian Arnold Toynbee in his 12-volume magnum opus A Study of History. It was an exploration of the rise and fall of 28 different civilisations.

He was right in some respects: civilisations are often responsible for their own decline. However, their self-destruction is usually assisted.

The Roman Empire, for example, was the victim of many ills including overexpansion, climatic change, environmental degradation and poor leadership. But it was also brought to its knees when Rome was sacked by the Visigoths in 410 and the Vandals in 455.

Collapse is often quick and greatness provides no immunity. The Roman Empire covered 1.9 million sq miles in 390. Five years later, it had plummeted to 770,000 sq miles. By 476, the empire’s reach was zero.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190218-are-we-on-the-road-to-civilisation-collapse

 

[Aneeda72]

I truly hope that your belief that this country will change for the better becomes a reality. I love my country, but I'm not hopeful for its future as a country that continues to command worlwide respect. I'm 70 years old. I don't wish to live long enough to see socialism replace capitalism.

I don’t think Americans, in general, understand what socialism is or capitalism or a democracy is for that matter. I certainly don’t know all the ins and outs. You, @deesierra, might be an exception. I have no way of knowing so I am not saying you don’t understand; just saying in general people don’t understand.

Medicare, medicaid, food stamps, giving help to the poor, the elderly, the disabled etc. Those programs are socialism programs. Therefore, if you participate in them or are aware of them, then you have seen socialism replace capitalism. Pubic health, free vaccine, socialism.

Free school? Free school is a socialistic program. Free college? Socialism. Libraries socialism. If the government is providing the program and you are not paying FULL cost for the program then, as I understand it, that is socialism.

Are you sure you want to pay for these programs? Pay a fee every time you get a book from the library? Yes, we pay taxes but individual taxes are uneven as they are income based.

In fact, our country and most countries have a great many socialistic programs. Before anyone rejects socialism give it a hard thought. What we don’t want is a dictatorship.

dictatorships bad, very bad.

 

[Chris P Bacon]

It looks like we might arrive sooner than we had planned to

 

[Murrmurr]

I truly hope that your belief that this country will change for the better becomes a reality. I love my country, but I'm not hopeful for its future as a country that continues to command worlwide respect. I'm 70 years old. I don't wish to live long enough to see socialism replace capitalism.

Understandably, many countries living under America's wing share your concern.

I do sometimes wonder if my optimism is actually denial, but, even when I examine it more deeply, I honestly think my optimism is valid.

 

[Remy]

The hoarding at the beginning of the pandemic when there was essentially no lack of food and toilet paper gave me an indication of how people behave.

 

[feywon]

@Aneeda72 said:
"...dictatorships bad, very bad."
Agreed! And there can be dictatorships that evolve from both ends (Right and Left) of the political spectrum. Anarchists are considered the truly extreme left as they want NO government. Ironically when they disrupt governments anywhere else on the spectrum they often pave the way for dictators and authoritarian rule. Why? Because Chaos is not a pleasant way to live, and having no central organizing body societies quickly descend into chaos. i have talked to young anarchists who seem to think that somehow the best in human nature will assert itself if government is disbanded. Clearly they have not paid attention or thought it thru. None could answer my questions about how roads would be maintained, healthcare administered, education or criminal activity be addressed. They have this Utopian vision that actually would quickly give us a dystopian world. A might makes right one.

But a lot of people get confused. They don't realize our Democratic Republic already has some socialistic aspects:
Social Security Admin, Medicare, Infrastructure issues addressed by tax $$. They also don't fully understand that Communist authoritarian governments, which often fail more quickly than Democratic systems, are a corruption of socialist principles. Orwell nailed the issues in 'Animal Farm'.

You want to avoid it...stay involved at all levels, research candidates and vote after some thought...not just on one issue or by party lines. Our next few elections are crucial--including the midterms.

 

[feywon]

...
As Gerald Celente, publisher of TrendsJournal, once wrote (or he might have said it), "When people have nothing left to lose, and they've lost everything, they lose it.” People are going to start "losing it" regularly. We're going to see an increase in violence, which will be met with increased government force. We may see our country become a police state to manage the discontent and keep us in line."

A line from the chorus of 'Me and Bobby McGee':
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." Except perhaps your sanity and/or life. Each individual has to decide their limits and priorities.

 

[ProTruckDriver]

I'm 70 years old. I don't wish to live long enough to see socialism replace capitalism.

My same thoughts.

 

[fuzzybuddy]

We are in the midst of a pandemic. It is not exactly a rosy time. History tells us we never lived in a rosy time. There isn't any era where there were not riots, divisions, and problems. I don't have a crystal ball, but things are not that dire. Maybe if you turn off those 24 hour news commentary TV shows, and actually look outside, the sky hasn't fallen.

 

[fmdog44]

It is impossible to discuss the decline of our recent society without mentioning some politicians so I'll step out.

 

[officerripley]

@Aneeda72 said:
"...dictatorships bad, very bad."
Agreed! And there can be dictatorships that evolve from both ends (Right and Left) of the political spectrum. Anarchists are considered the truly extreme left as they want NO government. Ironically when they disrupt governments anywhere else on the spectrum they often pave the way for dictators and authoritarian rule. Why? Because Chaos is not a pleasant way to live, and having no central organizing body societies quickly descend into chaos. i have talked to young anarchists who seem to think that somehow the best in human nature will assert itself if government is disbanded. Clearly they have not paid attention or thought it thru. None could answer my questions about how roads would be maintained, healthcare administered, education or criminal activity be addressed. They have this Utopian vision that actually would quickly give us a dystopian world. A might makes right one.

But a lot of people get confused. They don't realize our Democratic Republic already has some socialistic aspects:
Social Security Admin, Medicare, Infrastructure issues addressed by tax $$. They also don't fully understand that Communist authoritarian governments, which often fail more quickly than Democratic systems, are a corruption of socialist principles. Orwell nailed the issues in 'Animal Farm'.

You want to avoid it...stay involved at all levels, research candidates and vote after some thought...not just on one issue or by party lines. Our next few elections are crucial--including the midterms.

I agree. The handful of anarchists & libertarians I've talked to, seems like you can sum up their philosophy as: "You're not the boss of me! (It's okay if I or a buddy of mine becomes the boss of you, though.)" And that seems to be as far as they've thought about it.

 

[Cameron]

I think societies are always changing. Sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst. It is not always an upward trend. I recall talking to a senior gov't official who worked in the 1970s-1980s. Productivity was way up and the government had a surplus of income to toss at problems to solve. Now this not the case.

With resource depletion , global overpopulation, climate change, an economy in most countries globally linked we face a world of problems. Let alone the crime we see, education issues, careers that look to the easy way to make money... Change is coming. Roman empire did confront enormous challenges and the western half collapsed. The eastern half based in constainople reacted to the change and lasted another 1, 000 years

We will likely devolve to world of less material goods and more social goods. (community, resilience etc) Doing without a lot of the things we have now is not necessarily bad and may be positive. How we deal with the issues will likely be a statement of our times and written about in decades to come

 

[Time Waits 4 No Man]

I believe America will stumble on for another few decades, perhaps less, and then gradually sink deeper and deeper into the tarpit of a dystopian society where endless violence, crime, and governmental corruption is the norm. The only remedy is what Thomas Jefferson put forth long ago, should America reach this dark crossroads:

​

 

[Aneeda72]

I think societies are always changing. Sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst. It is not always an upward trend. I recall talking to a senior gov't official who worked in the 1970s-1980s. Productivity was way up and the government had a surplus of income to toss at problems to solve. Now this not the case.

With resource depletion , global overpopulation, climate change, an economy in most countries globally linked we face a world of problems. Let alone the crime we see, education issues, careers that look to the easy way to make money... Change is coming. Roman empire did confront enormous challenges and the western half collapsed. The eastern half based in constainople reacted to the change and lasted another 1, 000 years

We will likely devolve to world of less material goods and more social goods. (community, resilience etc) Doing without a lot of the things we have now is not necessarily bad and may be positive. How we deal with the issues will likely be a statement of our times and written about in decades to come

Except TP. seriously can’t do without TP and I see people are starting to buy it again in bulk.

 

[ProTruckDriver]

Except TP. seriously can’t do without TP and I see people are starting to buy it again in bulk.

Funny you should mention TP. I just received my TP order from Sams Club via FedEx a few hours ago. We have a good supply now to last us for a few years. We're getting ready for the next lockdown and the inflation of prices.

 

[jerry old]

“When we take away from a man his traditional way of life, his customs, his religion, we had better make certain to replace it with
SOMETHING OF VALUE”
― Robert Ruark, Something Of Value

 

[Tish]

The hoarding at the beginning of the pandemic when there was essentially no lack of food and toilet paper gave me an indication of how people behave.

Absolutely agree, it was not just the hoarding here it was the monopoly on the market, I remember going on eBay to try and buy a 4 roll pack, and seeing the outrageous prices they wanted for them some up to $400 per pack.
I'm afraid it was every man for themselves.

 

[Aneeda72]

Funny you should mention TP. I just received my TP order from Sams Club via FedEx a few hours ago. We have a good supply now to last us for a few years. We're getting ready for the next lockdown and the inflation of prices.

Years?

 

[Irwin]

Another indication that society may be on the verge of collapse is that these days, we can't even agree on basic facts. It's one thing to have a divergent opinion, but when we can't agree on what constitutes reality, there is no chance of coming to a consensus or getting anything useful accomplished.

 

[ProTruckDriver]

Years?

Yeah, I have 15 packs of these now. I'd buy one a week. I know if / when there is a lockdown our kids will be calling and asking if we have any extra TP. Also living in a retirement complex when the stores run out again I just might sell them to the senior citizens by the roll. (Just kidding)