Is This the Face of Hate?

I agree with DW... I don't think American youth is any more angry.. or more mentally imbalanced than in other countries, but I don't have statistics to back that up.. What IS different is that our crazy and angry people can get guns... any kind they want and as many as they want.
 

I agree QS the Gun thing has to be at the root of the problem. How could it not be? ( rhetoric question)...that isn't to say that Guns are unavailable here or any other country, we all know they are, however in this country Guns are not readily available by anyone to buy or use to unless you are first vetted by the police and then cleared to be issued with a Firearms certificate. No-one, apart from the Police (and then only in exceptional circumstances) and some farmers (on their own land) are permitted to carry a gun around on their person..unless at a shooting range for sport , where they're kept locked in Gun safes.

Of course guns can and are bought and sold on the black market and we do occasionally have serious gun crime committed here, sometimes committed by mentally unhinged folk who are licences to own guns ..but if you read this link you'll get the size of it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom
 
But this kind of thing does not happen in Switzerland and they all have guns and given to them by the government. They then get to keep them when the military terms is ended if they wish. I say there is something in their training that helps them to keep the purpose and use of guns as something OK and fun too do. The rest of the world doesn't seem to have that knowledge and ability. This person was a troubled person from early in his life. When his father gave him the gun it was the item missing from his hands. Maybe SC needs to review it's rules on gun ownership and the owners mind sets. We should not be putting such weapons into the hands of mental persons.

IT IS NOT THE GUN THAT CAUSED THE PROBLEM. It was the person that held the gun.
 

BUT.... without the gun... a person would have a VERY difficult time shooting 9 people dead. ALSO

tumblr_mlo1phtIZR1qgu9k8o1_500.jpg
 
Exactly Quicksilver. Guns have only one purpose, to kill something.
The owner of the gun has the power of life and death over others.
It is a power that should not be in the hands of everyone.

On the subject of the church shooter, it may be premature to judge the father.
One report I have read says that the boy used birthday money given to him to buy the gun.
 
A large part of the guns in the US are held by unregistered persons that are involved in criminal activities. Registering the guns is only for the folks that do agree with such and they do register and keep at home in protected ways. It is the unregistered guns, many many unregistered guns that need to be watched and stopped some way. Our current methods do nothing to end the criminal minded folks from having guns.

Nobody seems to accept that in Switzerland they have government provided guns, guns are carried all over town, on public transportation, walking and in hand. Switzerland seems to have little if any problems with guns. Maybe we should spend more time studying Switzerlands success with personal guns and try to follow their lead. The US way of trying to block guns does not seem to work well at all. That all goes into the mind set of the people. Criminals do not care. Mentally ill do not care. Sound minded folks do care and are following the rules. Just having rules that the honest and caring folks agree with is not the solution when the criminals and mental illness folks don't care at all.

I know, punish them all, especially the good, as the bad ones don't care one bit.

Also, Australia does have guns among its people. Many folks did turn in their guns but many folks have registered and can have their weapons for various reasons from usage to collecting.
 
Bob, I have visited Switzerland many times and have never seen anyone carrying a gun.It is true however, that many country people there have guns, and with military training for younger people, guns are in homes, which has caused a lot of deaths and injuries in domestic rows.You are right though, in that there seem to be no or little mass shootings.
 
I always laugh at the tired argument that if you limit accessibility to guns only the criminals will have guns. By that logic we should eliminate ALL laws, because the criminal element will break them anyway.. well DUUUUHHHH..... THAT's why we call them criminals.
 
oakapple said:
Bob, I have visited Switzerland many times and have never seen anyone carrying a gun.It is true however, that many country people there have guns, and with military training for younger people, guns are in homes, which has caused a lot of deaths and injuries in domestic rows.You are right though, in that there seem to be no or little mass shootings.
Click to expand...

Here are a couple links from my saved articles I have collected over time as I continue to argue for sane and sensible gun registrations over this takeover and eliminate from the honest citizens and no controls over the criminals and mental ill who are really the problems. Apparently you never visited Switzerland during any of their gun shoot days.
.................................

[FONT=&quot]http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/articles/guns-crime-swiss.html[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Guns, Crime, and the Swiss[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]by Stephen P. Halbrook, Ph.D., J.D.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]<Clip>[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Actually, for those who think that target shooting is more fun than golf, Switzerland is anything but "dull." By car or by train, you see shooting ranges all over the country, but only a few golf courses. If there is a Schuetzenfest in town, you will find rifles slung on hat racks in restaurants, and you will encounter men and women, old and young, walking, biking, and taking the tram with rifles over the shoulder, to and from the range. They stroll right past the police station and no one bats an eye (in the U.S. a SWAT Team might do you in).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tourists--especially those from Japan, where guns are banned to all but the police--think it's a revolution. But shooting is really just the national sport, although it has the deadly serious function of being the backbone of the national defense.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Although there is more per capita firepower in Switzerland than any place in the world, it is one of the safest places to be. To the delight of Americans who support the right to keep and bear arms, Switzerland is the proof in the pudding of the argument that guns don't cause crime.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]<Clip>[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When the first U.S. Congress met and turned to defense measures in 1791, Representative Jackson argued: "The inhabitants of Switzerland emancipated themselves by the establishment of a militia, which finally delivered them from the tyranny of their lords." A law was passed requiring every able-bodied citizen to provide himself with a firearm and enroll in the militia, and it stayed on the books for over a century.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].......................................[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://pages.prodigy.net/vanhooser/the_swiss_and_their_guns.htm[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Swiss and their Guns[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]By David B. Kopel and Stephen D'Andrilli[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]( American Rifleman February 1990 )[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"What America can learn from Switzerland is that the best way to reduce gun misuse is to promote responsible gun ownership."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the right to bear arms debate, pro-gun Americans point to Switzerland, where almost every adult male is legally required to possess a gun. One of the few nations with a higher per capita rate of gun ownership than the United States, Switzerland has virtually no gun crime. Therefore, argue the pro-gunners, America doesn't need gun control.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yet Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI), in its brochure "Handgun Facts," points to Switzerland as one of the advanced nations with strict handgun laws." The brochure states that all guns are registered, and handgun purchases require a background check and a permit. Gun crime in Switzerland is virtually non-existent. Therefore, concludes Handgun Control, America needs strict gun control.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who's right? As usual, Handgun Control is wrong, but that doesn't necessarily make the pro-gun side right. Gun ownership in Switzerland defies the simple categories of the American gun debate. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Like America, Switzerland won its independence in a revolutionary war fought by an armed citizenry. In 1291, several cantons (states) began a war of national liberation against Austria's Hapsburg Empire. In legend, the revolution was precipitated by William Tell, although there is no definitive proof of his existence.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Over the next century, the Swiss militia liberated most Switzerland from the Austrians. The ordinary citizens who composed the militia used the deadliest assault weapons the time, swords and bows. Crucial to the Swiss victory was the motivation of the free Swiss troops. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]<Clip>[/FONT]
 
Ameriscot said:
I don't know the answers but as Obama said, this kind of thing does not happen in other industrialised countries, or at least it's very rare.
Click to expand...

There are lunatics running loose all over the globe. During the Norway Massacre, 3 or 4 years ago, that lunatic killed 77 people...and this in a nation with Strict gun laws. I think that is an all time record for this kind of incident. Then, a couple of years ago, there was an attack by some extremists at a Chinese rail station where about 35 people were hacked to death with knives, and many others severely injured. Then, consider what these ISIS nutcases have done in just the past year...thousands killed.

I am convinced that about 10% of the human population is comprised of individuals who are just one small step from committing an atrocity. How to cope with, and control them is the $64,000 question.
 
Don M. said:
There are lunatics running loose all over the globe. During the Norway Massacre, 3 or 4 years ago, that lunatic killed 77 people...and this in a nation with Strict gun laws. I think that is an all time record for this kind of incident. Then, a couple of years ago, there was an attack by some extremists at a Chinese rail station where about 35 people were hacked to death with knives, and many others severely injured. Then, consider what these ISIS nutcases have done in just the past year...thousands killed.

I am convinced that about 10% of the human population is comprised of individuals who are just one small step from committing an atrocity. How to cope with, and control them is the $64,000 question.
Click to expand...

You can count the mass murders with guns on maybe two hands. That's it. Scotland had one - 1996. Hasn't had another. They got very strict gun laws after that. You can hardly lump ISIS into the same category of these kinds of mass murders - most done with guns obtained legally.

It happens so often in the US I'm not even surprised any more.
 
Article on Suboxone which the shooter was caught in possession of without a prescription less than 6 months ago.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/charleston-shooting-suspect-dylann-roof-drug-suboxone/

The question is was he trying to come off something or more than likely using to get high. Any article I've read on it so far says it seems to work well as opiate replacement for something like herion or as pointed out "middle class methadone". But all articles say as long as it's used what it's ment for under medical supervision.

I saw where the shooter said they almost talked him out of it. And it took him 6 months of planning???- Part of plan and he was the only one to go through with it? OR (NOT making excuses because he is an obvious hatred filled racist) but there might have been some ambivalence before the act from mood swings caused by the drug abuse. On the other hand maybe years of drug abuse post phoned the inevitable. Which leads to the father.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tective-follow-split-claims-court-papers.html

This can't be a good thing.
 
QuickSilver said:
Limiting their access to firearms might be a start.
Click to expand...

In the US that requires a Constitutional amendment to make it possible. So far not enough votes to even get that started. It would take a bit of time and up to some minimum number of states would have to agree to any change proposed. So glad we have a restricted Constitution and ways to change it. Over 200 years now with only a few changes to the Constitution. For stability for the nation that is the way it should be. A good solid document that can not just be changed by some arbitrary government decisions.

Only when they find ways to make the unregistered guns the outlaws seem to have no trouble getting hard to impossible to get, then maybe some good will happen. They get a gun, rob a store or two, maybe shoot some folks or police, then get a few short years in jail. Pretty sad and not much ado about them and their 'illegal' guns. These illegal guns are in use every day and over time they do a lot of damage.
 
BobF said:
In the US that requires a Constitutional amendment to make it possible. So far not enough votes to even get that started. It would take a bit of time and up to some minimum number of states would have to agree to any change proposed. So glad we have a restricted Constitution and ways to change it. Over 200 years now with only a few changes to the Constitution. For stability for the nation that is the way it should be. A good solid document that can not just be changed by some arbitrary government decisions.

Only when they find ways to make the unregistered guns the outlaws seem to have no trouble getting hard to impossible to get, then maybe some good will happen. They get a gun, rob a store or two, maybe shoot some folks or police, then get a few short years in jail. Pretty sad and not much ado about them and their 'illegal' guns. These illegal guns are in use every day and over time they do a lot of damage.
Click to expand...


So... what is YOUR solution to stop these massacres from continuing? How would you suggest we stop crazy people from getting guns if we do not limit the availability of guns?
 
QuickSilver said:
So... what is YOUR solution to stop these massacres from continuing? How would you suggest we stop crazy people from getting guns if we do not limit the availability of guns?
Click to expand...

And that was my point. All kinds of efforts to stop legal guns and usage but not much at all about ending the presence of illegal weapons of all types. Wrong group of folks to challenge while letting the criminal types and their choices of weapons pretty much alone. And also the limiting of knowledge of mental problems in the US to only related medical folks. There must be a way for that knowledge to be available to gun registration folks.
 
BobF said:
And that was my point. All kinds of efforts to stop legal guns and usage but not much at all about ending the presence of illegal weapons of all types. Wrong group of folks to challenge while letting the criminal types and their choices of weapons pretty much alone. And also the limiting of knowledge of mental problems in the US to only related medical folks. There must be a way for that knowledge to be available to gun registration folks.
Click to expand...


So again, are you saying you are in favor of universal gun registration and background checks for every gun purchase? Are you in favor of banning assault weapons and large volume clips?
 
You seem to be trying to put your words into my postings. Not at all what I am saying.

In order to keep adding restriction to legal ownership is not going after the illegal and criminal types and their sources at all.
 
Effectively, Bob, you have no answer, no solutions.
All you are offering are road blocks to people who want to do something about the carnage.

A constitution, even the Constitution of the United States, is just a legal document drawn up to regulate the operations of a government or other organisation. Where/when the document becomes out of date there is always a mechanism for modifying it. In fact, the second amendment is just one of these modifications. Amendments can also be rescinded when they prove to be counter productive. Prohibition is one example of such an amendment.

Looking from the outside I think that the time has come for the people of America to tackle the problems caused by the second amendment and the way it has been interpreted by the constitutional courts. Obstacles to dealing with the problems need to be identified and dealt with one by one. There is no simple solution but if the people will it, it can happen. You have a democracy when all is said and done.
 
BobF said:
You seem to be trying to put your words into my postings. Not at all what I am saying.

In order to keep adding restriction to legal ownership is not going after the illegal and criminal types and their sources at all.
Click to expand...

So then what is your solution to prevent criminals or the insane from getting access to guns??????
 
Bob, I have found something that is pertinent to you argument about Switzerland and gun ownership.

Proponents of unfettered gun ownership often point to the example of Switzerland, which has a tradition of more widespread firearms ownership than most other European countries but is not known for its gun-ravaged inner cities.
Advertisement


One problem is the trend is not that different: more guns still lead to more shooting, just less so than in America. Switzerland is actually second among wealthy countries in terms of annual gun deaths (0.77 per 100,000 of population in one recent survey, versus 2.97 in the US and just 0.07 in England and Wales) but has barely half as many guns per 100 people (45.7 versus 88.8 in the US).

But even this comparison gets weaker if you look at the way the Swiss keep their guns, which stems from a tradition of military service that has been considerably tightened over the years. One US study by the National Institutes of Health points out that both Switzerland and Israel (another alleged exception to the rule touted as proof that guns don’t kill) actually limit firearm ownership considerably and require permit renewal one to four times annually.

Those are just the kind of gun control measures, in fact, that second-amendment fans in the US claim wouldn’t make any difference to gun violence.
Click to expand...

I found this piece of information in a longer article that might be of interest to some.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...th-carolina-shooting-gun-control-reform-myths
 
This is the round robbin we face hear DW... 2nd amendment folks do NOT want any regulation, or control over who gets guns or what kind of guns can be owned... yet complain the the criminal element and "illegal" gun ownership must be stopped.. Typical... and pointless
 
To all of you there is a way to get the Constitution changed. I mentioned that a couple posts back and really wonder how some consider my thoughts to be wrong. To change the Constitution takes an initiative from Congress to do so. It takes debates and such to try to decide which part of the Constitution needs revisions or deleted. Once that part is done the effort gets sent to the states for review and voting. There is a minimum number of states that must agree with the revised Constitution or it will never happen. It is a good law and it is intended to stop radical ones from just ignoring the Constitution and jerking our constructions and controls of laws for stability.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

Article. V. The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
...........................

So if folks really want to change the 2nd Amendment, they need to get their state active and start making something happen. Sooner the better if it is such a big issue as some are trying to make this matter.
...........................
Article [II] (Amendment 2 - Bearing Arms)

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
..........................
I am sure happy that we do have these abilities and protections built into our Constitution so we don't end up with some really one sided and distorted setup that is only fair to some politicians and that means unfair to the voters.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top