Islam

Debby what happened to the Book of Enoch, Book of Thomas, and the Dead Sea Schrolls?
Translating=rewritten
how do you translate from one language to another that doesn't have the identical grammar structure?
the Mormon's Joseph Smith rewrote the King James Version, as an example.
scribes were used during the middle ages because no one could read or write, you can'T convince me license wasn't abused.
 

You can't just take one verse and hang your hat on that when it comes to Bible study. You have to look at all the rest of them as well and part of the reason is that much of his words were by way of parables and examples as well as references back to the OT. The Jews of that era were very aware that (in their opinion) he was making claims of divinity and that's why they took him before the Roman governor. If he had just been giving them advice on how to get along with one another, it wouldn't have been such a problem for them.


Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"[SUP]4

Exodus 3:14 says: [/SUP]New International Version
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

So God told Moses 'I Am' and then Jesus tells someone (in reference to himself) 'I Am' and makes specific reference to himself being 'before the birth of Abraham.



 
rt3 said:
Debby what happened to the Book of Enoch, Book of Thomas, and the Dead Sea Schrolls?
Translating=rewritten
how do you translate from one language to another that doesn't have the identical grammar structure?
the Mormon's Joseph Smith rewrote the King James Version, as an example.
scribes were used during the middle ages because no one could read or write, you can'T convince me license wasn't abused.
Click to expand...



The early church fathers decided which books would be included in the Bible, which as you probably know is not actually one book so much as it is 66 (?) individual books/letters that have been gathered into the one. Personally, I've never read the manuscripts that you mentioned although I have heard of them. It would be interesting to know exactly why they weren't included wouldn't it?

And a translation isn't a rewrite. rewritten) [ with obj. ]write (something) again so as to alter or improve it
The message/principle remains the same regardless of which Translation you read and those translations are made with the original language/context in mind. They update the language used, but the message is still 'on point'.

As for the Mormon book, I've never read it, but it's my understanding that Joseph Smith added 'books' to the original and the additions aren't recognized by the traditional Christian church.

License was most definitely not allowed when it came to translating the Word of God. That would be definitely be grounds for 'the rack' I would think.
 
The early church fathers decided which books would be included in the Bible, which as you probably know is not actually one book so much as it is 66 (?) individual books/letters that have been gathered into the one.
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This is exactly my point.. MEN decided what to include and what to exclude.. How so? What gave them the authority to decide what was the "word of God" and what wasn't... AND please tell me HOW did the "Word of God" make it's way from God down to a mortal who decided to write a book? When people start saying and believing they are channeling GOD... they have crossed the line into mental illness. People today hearing voices and making such claims would be hospitalized.
 
QuickSilver said:
This is exactly my point.. MEN decided what to include and what to exclude.. How so? What gave them the authority to decide what was the "word of God" and what wasn't... AND please tell me HOW did the "Word of God" make it's way from God down to a mortal who decided to write a book? When people start saying and believing they are channeling GOD... they have crossed the line into mental illness. People today hearing voices and making such claims would be hospitalized.
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Well, I guess you would have to ask a theologian how the early church decided which books/letters were inspired. Good question.

What you might dismiss as mental illness, people of faith might call inspiration. Personally, while I am no longer a religious person, I am still very much a spiritual person and I believe that it is possible for a greater Consciousness to 'speak' to us through new understandings or realizations that come to us in times of intense searching for wisdom and how to deal with life's issues.

I think a 'test' of those new understandings would be to determine if they are beneficial to you as well as the world in general. If a 'new understanding' was to tell you to go out and kill someone who was giving you grief, definitely not inspired in the theological sense. But if you were struggling with a relationship and a 'new understanding' gave you a different perspective that either healed the gulf or at the very least enabled you to find a way not to take it personally and so to disengage from the struggle, that could be called inspired. That's how I would differentiate.
 
Debby said:
I believe that it is possible for a greater Consciousness to 'speak' to us through new understandings or realizations that come to us in times of intense searching for wisdom and how to deal with life's issues.

I think a 'test' of those new understandings would be to determine if they are beneficial to you as well as the world in general. If a 'new understanding' was to tell you to go out and kill someone who was giving you grief, definitely not inspired in the theological sense. But if you were struggling with a relationship and a 'new understanding' gave you a different perspective that either healed the gulf or at the very least enabled you to find a way not to take it personally and so to disengage from the struggle, that could be called inspired. That's how I would differentiate.
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I agree with this analogy too Debby.
 
rt3 said:
Debby what happened to the Book of Enoch, Book of Thomas, and the Dead Sea Schrolls?
Translating=rewritten
how do you translate from one language to another that doesn't have the identical grammar structure?
the Mormon's Joseph Smith rewrote the King James Version, as an example.
scribes were used during the middle ages because no one could read or write, you can'T convince me license wasn't abused.
Click to expand...

That's a good question rt. They must of had good reason to illuminate those documents from the Bible. I'm sure those books and docs are sitting in the Vatican right now and they know all about it.
Why did we change from the old testament to the new? Anyone know?
 
flowerchild said:
That's a good question rt. They must of had good reason to illuminate those documents from the Bible. I'm sure those books and docs are sitting in the Vatican right now and they know all about it.
Why did we change from the old testament to the new? Anyone know?
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I looked up the Book of Enoch and for whatever reason, it was determined that it isn't inspired.

As for changing from the OT to the NT, well in a nutshell:

The OT was written by the Jews about the God they worship and it included a host of rituals and symbols that pointed to how to please God and directed the believers to watch for a coming Messiah who would make all 'right with God' and reunite God and man.

The sacrifices of animals were to remind the people that 'the wages of sin are death' and that only by the shedding of blood can there be a remission of sin or a return to the 'pre-sin' state.

The NT books explain how Jesus is that Messiah and his death was the final sacrifice for all the sins of man and that included the gentiles whom up til that moment were thought to be outside the love of God. And the resurrection of Christ illustrates his divinity and that through death (the acceptance of His death) one can come back to the Father.

Christians consider the OT more like support or background for the New Testament and that Jesus replaces the old sacrificial system and is the 'gate' to salvation. So no one has 'changed' from the OT to the New so much as the emphasis is changed and the New allows in non-Jewish believers. I think that's how the change could be explained.
 
The OT was written by the Jews about the God they worship and it included a host of rituals and symbols that pointed to how to please God and directed the believers to watch for a coming Messiah who would make all 'right with God' and reunite God and man.
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O.O I forget. Grin
I work with a guy who is from the old country, they practice the OT. Just was wondering, he's kind of quiet about it.
 
What do you mean about him practising the OT? Does that mean he doesn't believe in Jesus as the Messiah and he still practises making animal sacrifices? Sounds more like an old fashioned Jew.
 
The Old Testament was copied by the Egyptian priest Moses, from The Book of the Dead and other Egyptian teachings. So
they copied a folklore from the Isis and Osiris stories about being set in a boat as a baby, Osiris sealed in a box and each put out to water. The Old Testament is a storey that tells about the evolution on mankind both physically and on the consious level. It is hard to imagine today, because our consious selves have different levels. In those days people didn't lie, at least in the sense of trying to deceive someone, they actually believed whatever they were saying. Communication did not equal manipulation. Most Christian tales point to the serpant and the garden of Eden as the first deception. I thin you mean eliminate in your post, but there is an early group, the Illuminati , and also the Book of Enoch has reference to it, that the Garden of Eden is a storey of mankinds change from a vegetable state to more awareness state. Mixed with this is the concept of re-incarnations. Let's skip to communication equals manipulation.
Christ was an initiate of both Sufi esoteric mystism, and Egyptian philosophy. His gift was an increase in people's awareness that all living things contained God and nobody owns the keys. His re- incarnation, excuse me resurrection , or whatever ground hog storey you want to consider, typifies Eygyptian philosophy. Fast forward 500 years when Rome is falling apart and a bunch dudes are meeting at Nice. "Hey we need to write the Bible" , but we can't put this Book of Enoch stuff in it would mean we are not a direct link with God.
 
O.O I actually did not know the OT came from the Egyptians. Learn something new every day! Cool. I like the Egyptian stories, fascinating. I did know that Moses had written much of the bible.
Huh!!! so the rewrite of the Romans was the bases of the NT. I see!
Hey thanks. I'll have to check out some history if I can find any. Curious now.
 
Debby said:
What do you mean about him practising the OT? Does that mean he doesn't believe in Jesus as the Messiah and he still practises making animal sacrifices? Sounds more like an old fashioned Jew.
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He's from Ukraine, that's what he told me once that he learned the OT, but he didn't elaborate on it. No, I think he believes in Jesus, I'm mean I didn't ask him. But now my curiosity is raised, I will, he's in in another hour.
I work in a primarily Jewish doc hospital, I never know much about Jews until I worked here either.
I was raise Catholic. that's pretty much all I know. I do not practice anything however and will never be Catholic.
 
Debby said:
You can't just take one verse and hang your hat on that when it comes to Bible study. You have to look at all the rest of them as well and part of the reason is that much of his words were by way of parables and examples as well as references back to the OT. The Jews of that era were very aware that (in their opinion) he was making claims of divinity and that's why they took him before the Roman governor. If he had just been giving them advice on how to get along with one another, it wouldn't have been such a problem for them.


Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"[SUP]4

Exodus 3:14 says: [/SUP]New International Version
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

So God told Moses 'I Am' and then Jesus tells someone (in reference to himself) 'I Am' and makes specific reference to himself being 'before the birth of Abraham.



Click to expand...

I agree Debby,

I still do not believe there is a better way to live than what Jesus laid out in the bible. But one thing I also believe, is that the bible is "at least" supposed to be one Word. And read as such. In any book it isn't smart to take words out of context, as if it's written right, the words surrounding it are included
in the Author's meaning.
 
rt3 said:
The Old Testament was copied by the Egyptian priest Moses, from The Book of the Dead and other Egyptian teachings. So
they copied a folklore from the Isis and Osiris stories about being set in a boat as a baby, Osiris sealed in a box and each put out to water. The Old Testament is a storey that tells about the evolution on mankind both physically and on the consious level. It is hard to imagine today, because our consious selves have different levels. In those days people didn't lie, at least in the sense of trying to deceive someone, they actually believed whatever they were saying. Communication did not equal manipulation. Most Christian tales point to the serpant and the garden of Eden as the first deception. I thin you mean eliminate in your post, but there is an early group, the Illuminati , and also the Book of Enoch has reference to it, that the Garden of Eden is a storey of mankinds change from a vegetable state to more awareness state. Mixed with this is the concept of re-incarnations. Let's skip to communication equals manipulation.
Christ was an initiate of both Sufi esoteric mystism, and Egyptian philosophy. His gift was an increase in people's awareness that all living things contained God and nobody owns the keys. His re- incarnation, excuse me resurrection , or whatever ground hog storey you want to consider, typifies Eygyptian philosophy. Fast forward 500 years when Rome is falling apart and a bunch dudes are meeting at Nice. "Hey we need to write the Bible" , but we can't put this Book of Enoch stuff in it would mean we are not a direct link with God.
Click to expand...


Where do you get the following:
'the Garden of Eden is a storey of mankinds change from a vegetable state to more awareness state'

As for the resurrection story, maybe an early example of what we now call a NDE?

And the OT wasn't written by Moses or copied from anywhere that I ever heard. Christian teaching is that the OT was written over hundreds of years by many different people. In fact the whole Bible isn't really a single book so much as it is many books, with a common thread running through it and all pointing the Jews to how God should be worshipped and obeyed and to look forward to a Savior.

As for the Rome and Nice part, not sure about that but I did find this link: http://www.biblesociety.org.uk/the-bible/history-of-the-bible/
where it says '
  • The first official list was insisted on at the Church Council of Carthage towards the end of the 3rd century AD – rather than at the Council of Nicaea, as is commonly thought.'
 
flowerchild said:
He's from Ukraine, that's what he told me once that he learned the OT, but he didn't elaborate on it. No, I think he believes in Jesus, I'm mean I didn't ask him. But now my curiosity is raised, I will, he's in in another hour.
I work in a primarily Jewish doc hospital, I never know much about Jews until I worked here either.
I was raise Catholic. that's pretty much all I know. I do not practice anything however and will never be Catholic.
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Maybe he's Russian Orthodox. I don't know much about the Orthodox church but that would certainly be the right area for him to be practising that wouldn't it? Maybe when he says he's practising the OT, maybe he's referring to keeping the original Saturday Sabbath as Jews do.

When I was in my 'searching' mode, the very idea of telling some guy about my 'sins' just creeped me out. I felt that my sins were between me and God so the Catholic church wasn't on my radar at all at the time.

And just for the record, Moses did not write much of the Bible as it was written over a period of about a 1000 years. http://www.biblesociety.org.uk/the-bible/history-of-the-bible/

And I'd seriously question the NT being a 'rewrite by the Romans'. From the same link (the Bible Society)
'
  • During the 1st century AD, a collection of Christian Scriptures made up of accounts of the life of Jesus and letters of the apostle Paul;
  • The 2nd century AD saw a collection develop called ‘Gospel and Apostle’. ‘The Gospel’ was four accounts of the life of Jesus known as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. ‘Apostle’ was the collection of the letters written by Paul and, later, for writings by other apostles;
  • In the middle of the 2nd century AD, groups on the fringe of the Christian movement started to come up with their own gospels and letters. This forced the mainstream Church to define which works were part of the New Testament;
  • The first official list was insisted on at the Church Council of Carthage towards the end of the 3rd century AD – rather than at the Council of Nicaea, as is commonly thought.'
 
Good point Denise.
But then if you think about the Quran, there is no chronologic order of things, there is no story. It's a chant. So how can this be just one word or even bases for a religion that is supposed to be followed?
 
I have heard that the Quran isn't really a 'story' type book so much as it is a collection of definitive statements but beyond that I'm really not in a position to comment on it.

However, regarding the Bible, I think today Christians refer to it as the Word of God because of its inspired (and inspirational) status. Maybe it would be like referring to 'the family of Man' as in we're talking about a whole bunch of families that taken together are accounted for as 'the family of Man'. Does that make any sense?

The Word of God is actually a whole lot of 'words inspired by God to teach people about Him'.
 
Debby said:
I have heard that the Quran isn't really a 'story' type book so much as it is a collection of definitive statements but beyond that I'm really not in a position to comment on it.

However, regarding the Bible, I think today Christians refer to it as the Word of God because of its inspired (and inspirational) status. Maybe it would be like referring to 'the family of Man' as in we're talking about a whole bunch of families that taken together are accounted for as 'the family of Man'. Does that make any sense?

The Word of God is actually a whole lot of 'words inspired by God to teach people about Him'.
Click to expand...

Yes Debby;) Here's an easy read, although I just did the first two pages, but I found it really interesting from Flowerchild;)

http://clearquran.com/index.html


 
Thanks Denise. I read the first couple as well but I think I'll bookmark it and browse periodically. But I'm a little annoyed at you my dear and at Flowerchild! As if I don't have a long enough reading list! Harrumph.
 
Just another addition to my post to you, Debby;) I was taught Jesus was the Word of God incarnate, the bible was the "written" Word of God, and the Holy Spirit was the interpreter of the Word. I was taught triune God, all God, but each also separate in there "parts" . I could relate because I feel I am 3 parts, well, sometimes more than one personality, LOL, but my physical/body, my spirit, and my soul. Not meaning I am a god, but meaning that the bible did say he created us in their image.
 
I gotta run ,but I asked him, he's Orthodox Catholic. But he says he fled his country many years ago and now doesn't care about his country. Says it's too slow, lol.
 
I learned the same things Denise.

But here's something that Christians typically ignore. Did you know that Jesus said that 'we are gods'. Yes he did, and he did it here: John 10:34
International Standard Version
Jesus replied to them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, "You are gods"'?



Psalm 82:

6“I said, ‘You are “gods”;you are all sons of the Most High.’7But you will die like mere mortals;you will fall like every other ruler.”



So don't let anybody talk down to you Your Highness:D!

 

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