Israel Has Declared War after Unprecedented Hamas Attack

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Hundreds of people have gathered at a vigil in central London to commemorate Israeli victims of the Hamas incursion into the country.

Many were draped in Israeli flags and posters saying 'bring them home' with names and faces of hostages captured by Hamas were being handed out to attendees.

A series of candles were lit around the square by those in attendance, who gathered to hear speeches and comfort one another, many openly in tears.

Organisers, who estimated 700 people were in attendance, had also covered the square in posters reading 'kidnapped' alongside photos of those taken to Gaza by Hamas militants.

More than a dozen police officers could be seen patrolling the event in Parliament Square, Westminster. Before the vigil began, there were chants of 'Free Palestine' from passers-by, but as speeches started the scene quietened.

Those in attendance sang songs and held solemn moments of silence, before organisers asked people not to leave the site on their own for their own safety.
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More than 1,300 people in Israel were killed when Hamas militants launched a surprise assault from Gaza into the south of the country.

Gunmen travelled via land and air, paragliding into Israel and attacking a music festival, gunning down more than 260 people.

Elsewhere, Hamas militants killed entire villages and burned families in their own homes. Children and even babies were found shot in cold blood and even beheaded, officials have said.

In response Israel besieged the Gaza Strip, which is home to more than two million people, closing border crossings and cutting off all access to electricity, food and urgent aid supplies.

It has launched a campaign of airstrikes upon Gaza ahead of an expected ground operation aimed at 'destroying' Hamas, which is widely recognised as a terror group.

The strikes have so far killed more then 2,300 Palestinians.

It follows a day of nationwide protests in the UK on Saturday which saw thousands take to the streets in support of Palestinians.
 
hollydolly said:
A lone man brandishing an Israeli flag was chased down a London street and surrounded on Saturday by furious pro-Palestine protesters after two women were spotted with images of paragliders stuck to their jackets in an apparent reference to Hamas militants.

Dramatic video footage shared online showed pro-Palestinian protesters' anger boiling over as they were seen trampling on Israeli flags, before the man with his own flag had to be encircled by police officers for protection.

It came during nationwide pro-Palestinian rallies on Saturday which saw thousands take to the streets of cities including London, Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool and Bristol.

Home Secretary Suella Braverman today issued a stark warning to demonstrators, accusing some of glorifying terrorism and promoting genocide, as she said: 'The police are coming for you.'
Lone man carrying Israel flag is chased by pro-Palestinian protesters
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What a situation. What a difference a week or so makes. Things are set to get worse I bet.
 
An issue has arisen about the United States and Palestinian refugees.

It centers around a disagreement between those who think the United States should accept Palestinian refugees and those who don’t. Obviously it is a political disagreement as well as a concern for the American people so I will not be posting any links to either side.

I know people are worried about what will happen to Palestinians on a humanitarian level. Would you like to see them brought to the United States as refugees? Why or why not?

If talking about this is not ok with @Matrix I have no objection to my post being removed.
 
The Israeli government and intelligence services are being heavily criticized for not anticipating and thwarting the Hamas attack.

It's been reported that Egyptian intelligence had warned Israel that Hamas was plotting a terror attack several days before it happened.
 
Murrmurr said:
The Israeli government and intelligence services are being heavily criticized for not anticipating and thwarting the Hamas attack.

It's been reported that Egyptian intelligence had warned Israel that Hamas was plotting a terror attack several days before it happened.
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Where has it been reported?
 
Murrmurr said:
The Israeli government and intelligence services are being heavily criticized for not anticipating and thwarting the Hamas attack.

It's been reported that Egyptian intelligence had warned Israel that Hamas was plotting a terror attack several days before it happened.
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I think they really dropped the ball on the physical detection. One would've figured they would have detected heavy equipment knocking down the border fence. Or something like para gliders in their air space.

I'm guessing they ignored intelligence reports from Egypt because they had spies pretty deep in the Hamas organization and felt acting on any tips or intelligence would've jeopardized those people. I think saving over 1,000 lives and injuries is worthy of shutting down an spy op.
 
One thing that stands out is protestors demanding Israel stop and protect the lives of the innocent in Gaza, but not ONE of them that I've seen has demanded Hamas stop tossing rockets at Israeli civilians. A level of hypocrisy that needs correcting.

The PLO and and the Fatah Muslim parties immediately lost influence when they decided to make any concessions in the direction of peace. Their leaders were also threatened with violence just for becoming too moderate for the extremist Muslims.

Will this ever end? I don't see it ending in my lifetime. In order for it to end, the extremist Muslims must let go centuries of hate for non-Muslims and Jews. It's not just the west they hate, they hate anyone who doesn't believe their way. The rule and not the exception is this - if Hamas and Hezbollah lay down their arms, the fighting would cease immediately. If the Jewish people lay down their arms they would cease to exist. As a side note, every empire that has sought to oppress or exterminate the Jewish people has ended up on the ash heap of history.

Millenniums ago, all the people of the region were brothers ... well, half brothers. All descendants of Ishmael and Isaac, sons of Abraham by two different wives. It might be pointed out that friction in the region precedes Islam and Muhammad. It goes back thousands of years. And it is the offspring of Ishmael still seeking the birthright of Isaac. Muhammad simply dressed it all up as a religion as recently as some 1500 years ago.

There are strong evolutionary pressures for human beings to fear and then hate “others", whether the differences are physical characteristics, belief systems, cultural, tribal affiliations, or just because they live on the other side of the river. Some of that gets tamped down from time to time in certain societies but the tendency is always there because it’s an ingrained part of human nature and of course it makes sense from a primitive evolutionary standpoint. When it becomes acceptable to express those fears and biases ... well, out they come.

This current flare up in violence is also directed at other groups in the area that would immediately move in if Hamas were to somehow moderate their relationship with Israel and the Jewish people. These rival groups would take the place of Hamas and are in fact competing for their place. This retaliation from Israel is also a warning to others in the region who threaten them. While it's goal is to remove or reduce the threat from Hamas, the extremist torch will still burn. It will seemingly never end.

And so it is and with that in mind, when this current war is resolved, the U.S. and international aid will pour in by the billions. 1/3 will go to rebuilding infrastructure / humanitarian efforts, 1/3 will go into terrorist leadership's pockets, 1/3 to resupply weapons. Then in time, the attacks will resume, just as they have every few years. Although I'm probably being a little too generous on the infrastructure / humanitarian percentage.

Perhaps it's not just an issue of religion or genetic heritage. There are many similarities in the problem with Gaza to our own problems in larger cities and in pockets across America. Not nearly as extreme here, but the similar issues include poverty, very poorly educated population, dependency on welfare, gang / mob control of large areas, hatred and envy of others better off, a resentment that their problems are caused by others, livelihoods dependent on crime, a total lack of reasonable & responsible leaders, and a vicious violent attitude toward everyone.
 
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About missing the intelligence I either read or heard something a few days ago that made sense to me. Much intelligence is gained online or by phone interception or through electronic sources somehow.

It was said that the Hamas attack was planned between Iran and Hamas over a period of two years using totally old methods, word of mouth, couriers passing messages, etc.

True? I have no idea and I have no link. Everyone probably knows that the US is receiving the same criticism for not having picked up word of the attack either.
 
Naturally said:
One thing that stands out is protestors demanding Israel stop and protect the lives of the innocent in Gaza, but not ONE of them that I've seen has demanded Hamas stop tossing rockets at Israeli civilians. A level of hypocrisy that needs correcting.

The PLO and and the Fatah Muslim parties immediately lost influence when they decided to make any concessions in the direction of peace. Their leaders were also threatened with violence just for becoming too moderate for the extremist Muslims.

Will this ever end? I don't see it ending in my lifetime. In order for it to end, the extremist Muslims must let go centuries of hate for non-Muslims and Jews. It's not just the west they hate, they hate anyone who doesn't believe their way. The rule and not the exception is this - if Hamas and Hezbollah lay down their arms, the fighting would cease immediately. If the Jewish people lay down their arms they would cease to exist. As a side note, every empire that has sought to oppress or exterminate the Jewish people has ended up on the ash heap of history.

Millenniums ago, all the people of the region were brothers ... well, half brothers. All descendants of Ishmael and Isaac, sons of Abraham by two different wives. It might be pointed out that friction in the region precedes Islam and Muhammad. It goes back thousands of years. And it is the offspring of Ishmael still seeking the birthright of Isaac. Muhammad simply dressed it all up as a religion as recently as some 1500 years ago.

There are strong evolutionary pressures for human beings to fear and then hate “others", whether the differences are physical characteristics, belief systems, cultural, tribal affiliations, or just because they live on the other side of the river. Some of that gets tamped down from time to time in certain societies but the tendency is always there because it’s an ingrained part of human nature and of course it makes sense from a primitive evolutionary standpoint. When it becomes acceptable to express those fears and biases ... well, out they come.

This current flare up in violence is also directed at other groups in the area that would immediately move in if Hamas were to somehow moderate their relationship with Israel and the Jewish people. These rival groups would take the place of Hamas and are in fact competing for their place. This retaliation from Israel is also a warning to others in the region who threaten them. While it's goal is to remove or reduce the threat from Hamas, the extremist torch will still burn. It will seemingly never end.

And so it is and with that in mind, when this current war is resolved, the U.S. and international aid will pour in by the billions. 1/3 will go to rebuilding infrastructure / humanitarian efforts, 1/3 will go into terrorist leadership's pockets, 1/3 to resupply weapons. Then in time, the attacks will resume, just as they have every few years. Although I'm probably being a little too generous on the infrastructure / humanitarian percentage.

Perhaps it's not just an issue of religion or genetic heritage. There are many similarities in the problem with Gaza to our own problems in larger cities. Not nearly as extreme here, but the similar issues include poverty, very poorly educated population, dependency on welfare, gang / mob control of large areas, hatred and envy of others better off, a resentment that their problems are caused by others, livelihoods dependent on crime, a total lack of reasonable & responsible leaders, and a vicious violent attitude towards everyone.
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Excellent post...I have posted several times about the hypocrisy of those demanding Israel stops bombing so as to protect the innocent... but people are choosing to forget Israel didn't start this..they're defending themselves from those who didn't care about attacking & killing Israel elders and Children.... Deliberately... ...Purposely dragging people from their homes , killing, raping, and beheading... ... the actual hypocrisy beggars belief... ... if Israel did this there would be hell to pay.. yet by bombing in retaliation..even with a 24 hour warning they're made out to be the bad guys... just astonishing..
 
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Myrtle said:
About missing the intelligence I either read or heard something a few days ago that made sense to me. Much intelligence is gained online or by phone interception or through electronic sources somehow.

It was said that the Hamas attack was planned between Iran and Hamas over a period of two years using totally old methods, word of mouth, couriers passing messages, etc.

True? I have no idea and I have no link. Everyone probably knows that the US is receiving the same criticism for not having picked up word of the attack either.
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Intelligence people in the US have said (in the past) that Israel's intelligence agency has spies and moles working in Gaza, and that some even infiltrated Hamas (and Hezbollah as well). Maybe that's one reason everyone was so surprised about this breech.

It's likely there was too much reliance on technology over the past several years.
 
WhatInThe said:
I think they really dropped the ball on the physical detection. One would've figured they would have detected heavy equipment knocking down the border fence. Or something like para gliders in their air space.

I'm guessing they ignored intelligence reports from Egypt because they had spies pretty deep in the Hamas organization and felt acting on any tips or intelligence would've jeopardized those people. I think saving over 1,000 lives and injuries is worthy of shutting down an spy op.
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Yes, I just posted about that....before I saw your post. It's strange Hamas was able to pull this off and I'm interested to find out more.
 
Murrmurr said:
Yes, I just posted about that....before I saw your post. It's strange Hamas was able to pull this off and I'm interested to find out more.
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I think it mostly had to do with Hamas planning and timed when observation would be low or relaxed ... an Israeli holiday as well as the Jewish Shabbat from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Thus the 6:30 A.M. Saturday morning attack.

Last night I did some research and saw some photos of the purported Hamas planning documents. They appear to be very sophisticated, with detailed intelligence on civilians likely to be present, how many armed opposition the target Kibbutz could muster, and how long they had on target before IDF could respond.

The type and amount of intel that Hamas had indicates that there must have been ongoing Israeli warning signal intel and human intel for years leading up to the attacks. It also looked to me that they prioritized soft targets for maximum civilian casualties.

But they also targeted an Israeli Intel Hub. The 10 gunmen from Gaza knew exactly how to find the Israeli intelligence hub - and how to get inside.

After crossing into Israel, they headed east on five motorcycles, two gunmen on each vehicle, shooting at passing civilian cars as they pressed forward. Ten miles later, they veered off the road into a stretch of woodland, dismounting outside an unmanned gate to a military base. They blew open the barrier with a small explosive charge, entered the base and paused to take a group selfie. Then they shot dead an unarmed Israeli soldier dressed in a T-shirt. For a moment, the attackers appeared uncertain about where to go next. Then one of them pulled something from his pocket: a color-coded map of the complex. Reoriented, they found an unlocked door to a fortified building.

Once inside, they entered a room filled with computers - the military intelligence hub. Under a bed in the room, they found two soldiers taking shelter. The gunmen shot both dead.

With meticulous planning and extraordinary awareness of Israel’s secrets and weaknesses, Hamas and its allies overwhelmed the length of Israel’s front with Gaza shortly after dawn, shocking a nation.

Using drones, Hamas destroyed key surveillance and communications towers along the border with Gaza, imposing vast blind spots on the Israeli military. With explosives and tractors, Hamas blew open gaps in the border barricades, allowing 200 attackers to pour through in the first wave and another 1,800 later that day, officials say. On motorcycles and in pickup trucks, the assailants surged into Israel, overwhelming at least eight military bases and waging terrorist attacks against civilians in more than 15 villages and cities.

As stated, Hamas planning documents, videos of the assault and interviews with security officials show that the group had a surprisingly sophisticated understanding of how the Israeli military operated, where it stationed specific units, and even the time it would take for reinforcements to arrive.

The Israeli military has allowed a number of Israeli-citizen Muslims, professing their love for Israel, into their ranks. This kind of Hamas intelligence breach makes me wonder.
 
WhatInThe said:
I think they really dropped the ball on the physical detection. One would've figured they would have detected heavy equipment knocking down the border fence. Or something like para gliders in their air space.

I'm guessing they ignored intelligence reports from Egypt because they had spies pretty deep in the Hamas organization and felt acting on any tips or intelligence would've jeopardized those people. I think saving over 1,000 lives and injuries is worthy of shutting down an spy op.
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they studied weakness of the iron dome....weakness in radar detection systems...
iron dome compromised when too many misses at once...Para gliders at a certain height...no detection...
all at once..same time...
 
Naturally said:
I think it mostly had to do with Hamas planning and timed when observation would be low or relaxed ... an Israeli holiday as well as the Jewish Shabbat from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Thus the 6:30 A.M. Saturday morning attack.

Last night I did some research and saw some photos of the purported Hamas planning documents. They appear to be very sophisticated, with detailed intelligence on civilians likely to be present, how many armed opposition the target Kibbutz could muster, and how long they had on target before IDF could respond.

The type and amount of intel that Hamas had indicates that there must have been ongoing Israeli warning signal intel and human intel for years leading up to the attacks. It also looked to me that they prioritized soft targets for maximum civilian casualties.

But they also targeted an Israeli Intel Hub. The 10 gunmen from Gaza knew exactly how to find the Israeli intelligence hub - and how to get inside.

After crossing into Israel, they headed east on five motorcycles, two gunmen on each vehicle, shooting at passing civilian cars as they pressed forward. Ten miles later, they veered off the road into a stretch of woodland, dismounting outside an unmanned gate to a military base. They blew open the barrier with a small explosive charge, entered the base and paused to take a group selfie. Then they shot dead an unarmed Israeli soldier dressed in a T-shirt. For a moment, the attackers appeared uncertain about where to go next. Then one of them pulled something from his pocket: a color-coded map of the complex. Reoriented, they found an unlocked door to a fortified building.

Once inside, they entered a room filled with computers - the military intelligence hub. Under a bed in the room, they found two soldiers taking shelter. The gunmen shot both dead.

With meticulous planning and extraordinary awareness of Israel’s secrets and weaknesses, Hamas and its allies overwhelmed the length of Israel’s front with Gaza shortly after dawn, shocking a nation.

Using drones, Hamas destroyed key surveillance and communications towers along the border with Gaza, imposing vast blind spots on the Israeli military. With explosives and tractors, Hamas blew open gaps in the border barricades, allowing 200 attackers to pour through in the first wave and another 1,800 later that day, officials say. On motorcycles and in pickup trucks, the assailants surged into Israel, overwhelming at least eight military bases and waging terrorist attacks against civilians in more than 15 villages and cities.

As stated, Hamas planning documents, videos of the assault and interviews with security officials show that the group had a surprisingly sophisticated understanding of how the Israeli military operated, where it stationed specific units, and even the time it would take for reinforcements to arrive.

The Israeli military has allowed a number of Israeli-citizen Muslims, professing their love for Israel, into their ranks. This kind of Hamas intelligence breach makes me wonder.
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Yeah, like I said earlier, there's probably been too much reliance on technology to gather intelligence over the past several years, and too little on actual spies and moles.
 
Pepper said:
That's exactly how the evangelicals want Jews to think. All Jews need to be in Israel for the END, which is what they fervently desire. They do a lot of work on this in Israel. I have inside knowledge of this fact, I have a "spy". Evangelicals living in Israel may be "peaceful" but are dangerous.
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Evangelical interest in Israel in America is dying out in the younger demographic. Downside of that is the evangelical pro-Israel stance has long impacted US politicians who will no longer have to consider evangelical constituents when voting about policies and support for Israel.

ETA: There's been an enormous evangelical shift to megachurch 'prosperity gospel' and study of something such as eschatology is deeper than that group wants to go.

University for North Carolina at Pembroke researchers, carried out by Barna Group, has exposed what we have been finding for some time: younger evangelicals are much less supportive of Israel than older evangelicals, by a widening margin. The poll found a dramatic shift in attitudes between 2018 and 2021: support for Israel among young evangelicals dropped from 75% to 34%.
 
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I follow a large BBC News group, to study the comments. I am very troubled to read so much negativity, aggression, misinformation, hard heartedness, hatred. Opinion is so divided, so much heated feeling. Look at the huge crowds at the protest marches in London.

I fear we are heading for a world war.
 
Naturally. Bravo Zulu. Best summary I have read here in this thread about the actual planning and actions by Hamas. My opinion is the IDF placed too much reliance on their electronic surveillance methods.

When the border area sensors were taken out, they were left guessing at what was happening. Not enough physical IDF presence AT the border. Of course the planners at Hamas picked targets that were weakly defended, like the communities of the elderly, and the kibbutz villages. Easy pickings, unfortunately. One of the questions that I have been thinking about is this.......Why have we not seen videos of IDF helicopters in action on that first day ? I would have thought that air assets like that would have made quick work of lightly armed groups on the ground ?? Where were the Apaches and the Blackhawks that day ?? JimB.
 
@OneEyedDiva ... since I addressed this in a previous post, all I can say is WOW !!!
When I saw "Fatwa" in the title, I had to do a double take when I saw who it was directed against.
The Islamic Fatwa Council represents 1,500 Muslim Imams.

Senior Muslim Clerics Issue Fatwa Against Hamas

The Islamic Fatwa Council — a non-governmental clerical body headquartered in Najaf, Iraq — issued a fatwa, or religious edict, last week condemning Hamas’ repression of Palestinians in Gaza and calling on the terrorist group to make peace with Israel. The council stated that Hamas was responsible for racketeering, extortion, the use of child soldiers, and falsely accusing Palestinians of treason. The fatwa dictates that Muslims should not “pray for, support, finance or fight on behalf of Hamas.” An animated series of videos released in January detailing harsh living conditions in Gaza under Hamas rule — produced by the U.S.-based Center for Peace Communications and titled “Whispered in Gaza” — spurred the religious ruling.

The Islamic Fatwa Council is a judicial body that specializes in Islamic law, represents both Sunnis and Shiites, and is chaired by Grand Ayatollah Shaikh Fadhil al-Budairi. Among several key mission objectives, the council says it strives to “reclaim the Islamic legal system from extremists, Islamists, and supporters of terrorism.” The fatwa is the first against Hamas by an accredited Islamic legal body.

* More at link above
 
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Once on the ground inside Gaza, I think the Israeli campaign will be a prolonged one.
There are said to be 40K Hamas entrenched in northern Gaza. Each additional day allowing them to further entrench.

The analogy in my own personal experience is the last deployment I made in the WOT (war on terror) way back in 2004.
A deployment in support of the U.S. Marine campaign in Fallujah. The second battle for Fallujah lasted about 6wks.
We were there to provide air support for the Marines from aboard the USS John F Kennedy aircraft carrier.

The campaign in Gaza is going to be a brutal fight ... like Fallujah on steroids. Consider that the 2nd Battle of Fallujah consisted of 4k insurgents fighting in roughly a 5 square mile area. Whereas northern Gaza and Hamas represents 10x the enemy combatants in an area over 10x larger.

This is going to take a while ... once they even get on the ground inside Gaza.

I pray for Israel.
 
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