It is every man for himself in this world,....!

The fact John Donne was an ordained minister or priest is interesting in my view, and as I think I said earlier it is news to me.
I'm not sure what he might have thought of life today, but his words being remembered by so many would probably give him satisfaction.
I don't know what to make of the "never send to know" phrase, but the rest of that line, his most memorable of course, ..."for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee" is a brilliantly poetic way to force us all to consider our own lives and fate, (and as a man of God he would obviously consider all this closely wouldn't he).
 

Last edited:
ohioboy said:
Another way of saying "Never ask for whom the bell tolls". Never send for anyone to help you solve the puzzle. You are your own Prophet.
Click to expand...
THANKS!! I did not know that...I always said/heard "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee"
Reminds me ..in High School I was at an assembly and the speaker has just said this line and the school bell rang :)
 
Serenity4321 said:
THANKS!! I did not know that...I always said/heard "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee"
Reminds me ..in High School I was at an assembly and the speaker has just said this line and the school bell rang :)
Click to expand...

I don't know if you remember J.F.K.'s inaugural speech, in part:

"Ask not what your Country can do for you, ask what you can do for your Country".

Anyway Milton took advantage of the so called "poetic license", never read before phraseology that can be attributed to him first as a poet, or could be he picked it up somewhere. Could be it popped into his head in an instant when composing?
 

grahamg said:
The fact John Donne was an ordained minister or priest is interesting in my view, and as I think I said earlier it is news to me.
I'm not sure what he might have thought of life today, but his words being remembered by so many would probably give him satisfaction.
I don't know what to make of the "never send to know" phrase, but the rest of that line, his most memorable of course, ..."for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee" is a brilliantly poetic way to force us all to consider our own lives and fate, (and as a man of God he would obviously consider all this closely wouldn't he).
Click to expand...
If two people have a bell-toll ringtone, that could have a completely different meaning. :)
 
Serenity4321 said:
THANKS!! I did not know that...I always said/heard "ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee"
Reminds me ..in High School I was at an assembly and the speaker has just said this line and the school bell rang :)
Click to expand...
In our school assembly it was the "No man is an island, entire in itself,..." line the headmaster chose to focus upon and explain how much the boys should consider this, (his nickname ironically was "God" :) !).
 
officerripley said:
Upon being accused of and criticized for inconsistency when shifting his views and recommendations on monetary policy, Depression-era economist John Maynard Keynes came back with the reply, “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”
Click to expand...
I remember a discussion once concerning Keynesian economics, and the economic theory of Milton Friedman whose life and ideas followed on during twentieth century, (a preference being expressed for the former I believe).
Not sure whether this recollection aids the discussion but there you go!
 
FastTrax said:
Take that bow, you deserve it. I know we didn't quite mesh some time ago and I do apologize but I've learned quite a lot from your intrinsic wisdom. You are very good at what you do and you do it well. Enjoy your weekend partner.
Click to expand...
If no one could think of an idea for a thread where would we be, (whatever we disagreed about I've completely forgotten!)? :)
 
grahamg said:
If no one could think of an idea for a thread where would we be, (whatever we disagreed about I've completely forgotten!)? :)
Click to expand...
I am curious why most of what you brought up in this thread was about your father's views. What are your views? That is the more relevant thing. I am not sure or not if you actually presented your viewpoint.

I also was raised by a charismatic, authoritarian father, who messed up my head for 25 or 30 years after I became an adult. I eventually abandoned his viewpoints completely. While I am willing to concede that his viewpoints were in a large point due to the time he came from, his intolerance to accepting my differing viewpoint to his is not so easy to rationalize as he never could see things from my perspective.

By abandoning his viewpoints, I became my own man and his viewpoints are just a footnote in who I am now. I found other teachers and mentors and chose my own viewpoint and no longer had it foisted on me by my father so I no longer try to justify his viewpoint or question if it was right or not.

I am curious why it is so important to you to determine if your father's views were good or bad. Do you think his views were good or bad?
 
LSWOTE said:
I am curious why most of what you brought up in this thread was about your father's views. What are your views? That is the more relevant thing. I am not sure or not if you actually presented your viewpoint.
I also was raised by a charismatic, authoritarian father, who messed up my head for 25 or 30 years after I became an adult. I eventually abandoned his viewpoints completely. While I am willing to concede that his viewpoints were in a large point due to the time he came from, his intolerance to accepting my differing viewpoint to his is not so easy to rationalize as he never could see things from my perspective.
By abandoning his viewpoints, I became my own man and his viewpoints are just a footnote in who I am now. I found other teachers and mentors and chose my own viewpoint and no longer had it foisted on me by my father so I no longer try to justify his viewpoint or question if it was right or not.
I am curious why it is so important to you to determine if your father's views were good or bad. Do you think his views were good or bad?
Click to expand...
A lot of very good questions, and I'll have a go at responding as best I can.
Your last question can be answered most easily, and yes I do think my dads ideas were sound, (following them not straight forward even for him as I've said). Why is it so important to determine or assess his views? Perhaps because I feel I've let myself be walked all over in life too often, but that's just a quick explanation.
I probably do assert myself more easily as I get older, my father is no longer with us of course, (and I admit just how deeply ingrained it was in my make up to defer to my dad). Even when he tried to encourage me by telling me his own father at times questioned his abilities, (and whether he'd succeed), to reduce my tendency for self criticism perhaps.
However, I have made my own decisions in life about the important things, and though its been topsy turvy going so far, it would certainly have been wrong to allow my dad to rule in important areas of my life. Choices such as my choice of career, marriage, where to live, how to behave towards my child. My mother would not let him interfere too much though, that is of course, "when she wasn't interfering herself" ("- all with the best intentions I know!").
If I've given you too many contradictions or confusing statements to try to understand please accept my apologies, but I am trying to type this whilst the FA Cup Final at Wembley Stadium in London is being shown on live TV. :)
 
Last edited:
grahamg said:
If I've given you too many contradictions or confusing statements to try to understand please accept my apologies, but I am trying to type this whilst the FA Cup Final at Wembley Stadium in London is being shown on live TV. :)
Click to expand...
Your response was very understandable. I didn't find it confusing or contradictory. I feel very impressed I could grab the attention of someone watching the FA Cup Final. Enjoy!
 
LSWOTE said:
Your response was very understandable. I didn't find it confusing or contradictory. I feel very impressed I could grab the attention of someone watching the FA Cup Final. Enjoy!
Click to expand...
The underdogs deservedly won in a good match, scoring a great goal to win the game, and then being very lucky when a goal for the opposition was ruled just offside by VAR, (video replay if you don't use the same terminology or acronym?). We do like it when underdogs win in this country!!! :)
 
Am I getting paranoid or are folks becoming a bit meaner these days here abouts?

They do talk about "The mean streets of New York" dont they, (and I dont think they mean the roadways themselves do they!), so if such is the state of affairs there maybe its spread to my neighbourhood in the UK following all the trials and tribulations of the last year or so, and we can all look forward to some "tough love", (or people looking out for number one, as my father suggested all those years ago). :unsure:
 
grahamg said:
"It is every man for himself in this world"
Click to expand...
I think it is best to live your life as if that was true for you, be as independent and self-reliant as possible. On the other hand try to give others all the help and support you can. Its the right thing to do, and sometimes it will come back to you. So in the end I see something to what your father said, but its not the whole story.
 
grahamg said:
Am I getting paranoid or are folks becoming a bit meaner these days here abouts?

They do talk about "The mean streets of New York" dont they, (and I dont think they mean the roadways themselves do they!), so if such is the state of affairs there maybe its spread to my neighbourhood in the UK following all the trials and tribulations of the last year or so, and we can all look forward to some "tough love", (or people looking out for number one, as my father suggested all those years ago). :unsure:
Click to expand...
There was actually a story in the news this morning about that very thing, about the effect the Pandemic is having on people's psychological/emotional state: "Back to normal? Psychologists warn the pandemic could have lasting effects. Mental health professionals are ramping up their efforts to understand the pandemic's impact — and early findings are not encouraging." (To read the rest of the article: https://www.nbcnews.com/science/sci...logists-warn-pandemic-lasting-effects-rcna965
 
grahamg said:
Am I getting paranoid or are folks becoming a bit meaner these days here abouts?

They do talk about "The mean streets of New York" dont they, (and I dont think they mean the roadways themselves do they!), so if such is the state of affairs there maybe its spread to my neighbourhood in the UK following all the trials and tribulations of the last year or so, and we can all look forward to some "tough love", (or people looking out for number one, as my father suggested all those years ago). :unsure:
Click to expand...
You mention the trials and tribulations of the last year or so, then you suggest that we can look forward to some tough love.
During the pandemic, the NHS sent out urgent requests for retired staff to help out. Many answered that call. 119 paid the ultimate price. Tough love? For whom? https://www.hsj.co.uk/exclusive-deaths-of-nhs-staff-from-covid-19-analysed/7027471.article
 
officerripley said:
There was actually a story in the news this morning about that very thing, about the effect the Pandemic is having on people's psychological/emotional state: "Back to normal? Psychologists warn the pandemic could have lasting effects. Mental health professionals are ramping up their efforts to understand the pandemic's impact — and early findings are not encouraging." (To read the rest of the article: https://www.nbcnews.com/science/sci...logists-warn-pandemic-lasting-effects-rcna965
Click to expand...
Giving them the benefit of the doubt that they're not just trying to drum up business and get government grants, it's not surprising that some people will suffer long term effects, but most people will come out of it in tact. Anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers who lost loved ones due to their refusal to take precautions in all likelihood will suffer extreme guilt — especially if they were responsible, but they might have a different perspective or be able to justify it in some way. People who suffered severe economic hardships and debt could be traumatized if they lacked a healthy social support network. Children whose parents have been irrational through the crisis could look back when they're adults at their parents behavior and perhaps view them in a different light than they otherwise would have.
 
Irwin said:
Giving them the benefit of the doubt that they're not just trying to drum up business and get government grants, it's not surprising that some people will suffer long term effects, but most people will come out of it in tact. Anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers who lost loved ones due to their refusal to take precautions in all likelihood will suffer extreme guilt — especially if they were responsible, but they might have a different perspective or be able to justify it in some way. People who suffered severe economic hardships and debt could be traumatized if they lacked a healthy social support network. Children whose parents have been irrational through the crisis could look back when they're adults at their parents behavior and perhaps view them in a different light than they otherwise would have.
Click to expand...
Those you think might suffer extreme guilt for their actions I'd suggest are often incapable of recognising fault in their own actions, hence it may be they will feel no guilt at all. :(
 
horseless carriage said:
You mention the trials and tribulations of the last year or so, then you suggest that we can look forward to some tough love.
During the pandemic, the NHS sent out urgent requests for retired staff to help out. Many answered that call. 119 paid the ultimate price. Tough love? For whom? https://www.hsj.co.uk/exclusive-deaths-of-nhs-staff-from-covid-19-analysed/7027471.article
Click to expand...
I've "no argument with your comments", (for once!), and my suggestion about possible "tough love" coming our way was a general comment, about a possible consequence of folks becoming more hard nosed due to their/our lives being disrupted in the way they have during the last year or so.
 
We are the baby boom generation. We won the war, and reaped the spoils. Materialism/money/family ruled for our parents. We got treated to the feast. We are branded the "ME" generation. Many of the younger generations blame us for our short sighted selfishness that has caused run away global warming, extinction/s, massive inequality, and shallowness. Your father was right, and our generation bought it hook line and sinker. BUT, the tide is turning. The younger generations are demanding we see the world as integral. We each have a butterfly effect on how we respond to life's challenges. I agree with them. The old meme must be transformed from competition to cooperation.

2ba076c38db45c8cb3de77d1da0c0787.jpg
 


Back
Top