Junior Doctors in the UK go on strike

Don M. said:
It appears that the younger doctors in the UK are stressed out over their latest contract, and have staged a walkout.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-35286343

Perhaps they should try to immigrate to the U.S., where they stand a pretty good chance of getting quite wealthy.
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Problem is this is what would be coming to the US if a single payer system ever is implemented. Single payer means medical professionals become a government employee with little leeway in salary negotiation. Single payer not only means fewer alternatives for the patient but fewer options for the medical professional as well. Basically only one employer to "chose" to work for. Same probably applies for work locations as well because unless that transfer paper work is approved a medical professional would be stuck in the same job in the same city in the same office for like ever.
 
So what? We need SINGLE PAYER... because it is a much better system for all Americans.. Most folks in Canada and the UK are more than satisfied. It has always been my understanding that UK doctors are pretty well compensated and are not taking up spaces on a bread line.
 

Junior doctors here in the UK have to work crazy hours and the pay isn't great either. But our National Health Service, which is free at point of need, is strapped for cash.
 
Is that too much unlike how Interns and Residents here in the USA have to work crazy hours for not such great pay? Do the "Junior Doctors" eventually end up being "senior Doctors" with better hours and better pay like our Interns and Residents?
 
QuickSilver said:
Is that too much unlike how Interns and Residents here in the USA have to work crazy hours for not such great pay? Do the "Junior Doctors" eventually end up being "senior Doctors" with better hours and better pay like our Interns and Residents?
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Some do, others go into General Practice in the community, which is still controlled by the NHS.
 
WhatInThe said:
Problem is this is what would be coming to the US if a single payer system ever is implemented. Single payer means medical professionals become a government employee with little leeway in salary negotiation. Single payer not only means fewer alternatives for the patient but fewer options for the medical professional as well. Basically only one employer to "chose" to work for. Same probably applies for work locations as well because unless that transfer paper work is approved a medical professional would be stuck in the same job in the same city in the same office for like ever.
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Not quite true. Any doctor can elect to work in the private sector, but since they pay the best money, they make sure they only employ the best staff (nurses too).

Many doctors, particularly at senior level, work in both sectors.

Similarly with location. Any doctor can apply for any position anywhere, out problem is that they don't tend to go for posts in Orkney and Shetland and the like!

As has been said, junior doctors get the dirty end of the stick. On the mainland their working hours would be illegal, but successive British governments, of all shades, have obtained and sustained an opt out from the EU "Working Time Directive".

The biggest problem with what you call the "single payer" system is not the service it provides, but the fact that it becomes a political football.
 
WhatInThe said:
Problem is this is what would be coming to the US if a single payer system ever is implemented. Single payer means medical professionals become a government employee with little leeway in salary negotiation. Single payer not only means fewer alternatives for the patient but fewer options for the medical professional as well. Basically only one employer to "chose" to work for. Same probably applies for work locations as well because unless that transfer paper work is approved a medical professional would be stuck in the same job in the same city in the same office for like ever.
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I'm sure there are some issues with the SP-UHC plans that most other nations use....However, on balance, these systems rank substantially ahead of the care and costs that we get in the U.S. We pay almost twice as much for health care as these other nations, and the latest ranking of the top 11 Developed Nations puts the U.S. at the Bottom of the list.

http://time.com/2888403/u-s-health-care-ranked-worst-in-the-developed-world/

Our system seems to be more about Money, than overall patient care. Here, our care and costs are more dictated by the Insurance and Drug companies, than anything else. I agree that doctors and providers should be paid a decent wage and benefits, but I don't think we need to be paying for ridiculous corporate executives salaries, and constant media bombardment from the Drug companies.
 
Here our medical Residents. ( they ARE already doctors, not students) work obscene hours that would be illegal in other fields. And this has become a political football here too..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_resident_work_hours

Medical resident work hours refers to the (often lengthy) shifts worked by medical interns and residents during their medical residency. The issue has become a political football in the United States, where federal regulations do not limit the number of hours that can be assigned during a graduate medical student's medical residency. Starting in 2003, with revisions in 2011, regulations from the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education capped the work-week at 80 hours. Shifts are capped (with limited exceptions) at a maximum of 16 consecutive hours for a first year resident and 24 in the second and third years.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] [SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP]

Medical residencies traditionally require lengthy hours of trainees. The public and the medical education establishment recognize that such long hours are counter-productive, since sleep deprivation increases rates of medical errors and may affect learning, however the phenomenon persists in order to create a higher entry barrier and reduce costs for medical facilities.
This risk was noted in a landmark study on the effects of sleep deprivation and error rate in an intensive care unit.[SUP][5][/SUP] The Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) has limited the number of work-hours to 80 hours weekly, overnight call frequency to no more than one in three, 30-hour maximum straight shifts, and at least 10 hours off between shifts. While these limits are voluntary, adherence has been mandated for accreditation.
The Institute of Medicine (IOM) built upon the recommendations of the ACGME in the December 2008 report Resident Duty Hours: Enhancing Sleep, Supervision and Safety. While keeping the ACGME's recommendations of an 80-hour work week averaged over 4 weeks, the IOM report recommends that duty hours should not exceed 16 hours per shift for interns (PGY 1). The IOM also recommended strategic napping between the hours of 10pm and 8am for shifts lasting up to 30 hours. The ACGME officially recommended strategic napping between the hours of 10pm and 8am on 30 hour shifts for residents who are post graduate year 2 and above but did not make this a requirement for program compliance. The report also suggests residents be given variable off-duty periods between shifts, based on the timing and duration of the shift, to allow residents to catch up on sleep each day and make up for chronic sleep deprivation on days off.
Critics of long residency hours trace the problem to the fact that resident physicians have no alternatives to positions that are offered, meaning residents must accept all conditions of employment, including very long work hours, and that they must also, in many cases, contend with poor supervision.[SUP][6][/SUP] This process, they contend, reduces the competitive pressures on hospitals, resulting in low salaries and long, unsafe work hours.
 
transfers, work location

Laurie said:
Not quite true. Any doctor can elect to work in the private sector, but since they pay the best money, they make sure they only employ the best staff (nurses too).

Many doctors, particularly at senior level, work in both sectors.

Similarly with location. Any doctor can apply for any position anywhere, out problem is that they don't tend to go for posts in Orkney and Shetland and the like!

As has been said, junior doctors get the dirty end of the stick. On the mainland their working hours would be illegal, but successive British governments, of all shades, have obtained and sustained an opt out from the EU "Working Time Directive".

The biggest problem with what you call the "single payer" system is not the service it provides, but the fact that it becomes a political football.
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What I've experienced/noticed over the years of working for big national companies/organizations with multiple work locations to chose from is that there always seems to be a wait to get a transfer. Even if there isn't a waiting list many supervisors and management do things like "lose" or ignore transfer paperwork. Same can be said for the military or government at times. In most companies or government organizations who gets more transfer requests-Alaska or Hawaii.

As pointed out nobody wants to work in certain locations or they all want the glamour division of the company in job or location. I had a job working in one of the worst neighborhoods in a big city where at one point it took 7-10 years to get out because the turnover in suburban locations was much lower. But that wait festers an attitude which in turn comes back on work product. At least in the private sector you can change company and jobs to get what and where you want to work.

I would have no problem as a single payer patient especially if it was always there as an option. Mandating or limiting it to a single payer system is the problem and that pain in the butt political football.
 
Do bear in mind that there is an error in the thread title.

It is only in England that the doctors are on strike. In the other three quarters of the UK all is normal.

There is also a bit of misunderstanding over doctors' contracts. While they work in the Health Service they still have complete freedom over their contracts and where they work. A job comes up and they apply for it if they want it just like you and I. If they get it they give their notice in just like you and I. In my local surgery, no different to any other, one doctor with a young family only works one morning a week.

Try to compare them with schoolteachers - most work for an Education Board, with limited negotiation on salary, but with complete freedom to move into the private sector, or to change jobs as they wish.
 
Laurie said:
Do bear in mind that there is an error in the thread title.

It is only in England that the doctors are on strike. In the other three quarters of the UK all is normal.

There is also a bit of misunderstanding over doctors' contracts. While they work in the Health Service they still have complete freedom over their contracts and where they work. A job comes up and they apply for it if they want it just like you and I. If they get it they give their notice in just like you and I. In my local surgery, no different to any other, one doctor with a young family only works one morning a week.

Try to compare them with schoolteachers - most work for an Education Board, with limited negotiation on salary, but with complete freedom to move into the private sector, or to change jobs as they wish.
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why ruin a perfectly GOOOOD reason to bash ObamaCare.
 
I've always wondered about the wisdom of working the residents and interns so hard and for such long hours. If I were lying on the table in a life or death crisis, I would not want my physician sleep deprived and exhausted.
 
QuickSilver said:
So what? We need SINGLE PAYER... because it is a much better system for all Americans.. Most folks in Canada and the UK are more than satisfied. It has always been my understanding that UK doctors are pretty well compensated and are not taking up spaces on a bread line.
Click to expand...

I am very satisfied with the UK NHS. Actually Scottish NHS is separate. I am grateful that I don't have to grow old with the US system which is a totally for-profit system. I hear you all complaining about your copay for prescriptions and office visits. I pay zero.
 
Don M. said:
I'm sure there are some issues with the SP-UHC plans that most other nations use....However, on balance, these systems rank substantially ahead of the care and costs that we get in the U.S. We pay almost twice as much for health care as these other nations, and the latest ranking of the top 11 Developed Nations puts the U.S. at the Bottom of the list.

http://time.com/2888403/u-s-health-care-ranked-worst-in-the-developed-world/

Our system seems to be more about Money, than overall patient care. Here, our care and costs are more dictated by the Insurance and Drug companies, than anything else. I agree that doctors and providers should be paid a decent wage and benefits, but I don't think we need to be paying for ridiculous corporate executives salaries, and constant media bombardment from the Drug companies.
Click to expand...

Exactly. And often extra tests and procedures are done which are not needed, it is simply to get more money from the insurance companies. And who do you think ends up paying for that?
 
Ameriscot said:
I am very satisfied with the UK NHS. Actually Scottish NHS is separate. I am grateful that I don't have to grow old with the US system which is a totally for-profit system. I hear you all complaining about your copay for prescriptions and office visits. I pay zero.
Click to expand...

Having been in touch with people from the US over the years, I am so very grateful for the British NHS, free at the point of need. One elderly American woman told the tragic tale of the death of her son, because he couldn't afford full health insurance, and therefore wasn't able to have the tests to diagnose his cancer!
 
Bluecheese50 said:
Having been in touch with people from the US over the years, I am so very grateful for the British NHS, free at the point of need. One elderly American woman told the tragic tale of the death of her son, because he couldn't afford full health insurance, and therefore wasn't able to have the tests to diagnose his cancer!
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After 48 years of US healthcare, I'm grateful as well.
 
I don't think the US will ever be fortunate enough to go completely to single payer. Too much opposition on the Right to keep the private insurance companies bathed in profits. The best we can hope for is strengthening Medicare for seniors and improving the ACA to cover more people. OH.. and stopping Republicans from messing with either.
 
What I would like to see is a government program that subsidizes the University Costs for students who want to become doctors....with the stipulation that after graduation, they become Family Doctors/General Practitioners. The vast majority of today's Med students...95%, by some estimates....are studying to enter one of the "specialties"...primarily because of the larger sums of money they can make. This is going to create a serious problem, in the future, due to a lack of primary care doctors.
 
For some reasons I do think Hillary will be better than Obama. One is she keeps saying the current health system needs fixed. What she will fix I don't know but it surely does need fixed as it has become more expensive now than it was before Obama's undeveloped in Congress health system.

I know, it did come out of a closed Congress, where only the Democrats would allow things to be done their way. None of the Republicans were allowed to input and put pages into the Obama care package that then went somewhere else for actual design and usage. All I remember of the Obama care package was blank pages that had titles on them but no real definitions or descriptions. Those were worked out after the passing by the Democrat controlled Congress.
 
Don M. said:
What I would like to see is a government program that subsidizes the University Costs for students who want to become doctors....with the stipulation that after graduation, they become Family Doctors/General Practitioners. The vast majority of today's Med students...95%, by some estimates....are studying to enter one of the "specialties"...primarily because of the larger sums of money they can make. This is going to create a serious problem, in the future, due to a lack of primary care doctors.
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I agree that that would be a sensible approach.. however, it would require an appropriation of funds, and getting anything sensible out of this Congress is impossible.. I'm sure they would require cuts to other social programs to offset it.. as they do with everything else....all the while legislating additional tax cuts for the wealthy...
 

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