Just Decided to Become Pig Free

Kitties, that sounds like you've been burned by that group. I stay away from any organized groups like that and do whatever I think is best for me. My decision to be meat-free is both ethical and health based. I try not to get on my soap box but every now and then I forget and blurt out my opinions and sometimes people get offended.

I figure with the older folks it doesn't make much difference, if there was going to be damage due to diet its already done. and they'll won't be around much longer anyway. I believe changes will be evident in the future with the more flexible younger generation more likely to choose a vegetarian or vegan diet.
 

I know we tend to wander all over topic...but I started it as to why I would begin to stop eating animals gradually...and it turns into folks sharing their farming techniques. I mean I know a good steak and baked potato can be awesome. But eventually I want to seek out alternatives. It's not about people, it's sympathy for the poor creatures that have to die for such things.
 
See I don't do the cooking. My hubby or kids do. Meat is expected by them and cooking is one of my least favorite things to do. I don't really like pork products so one meat at a time...works for me.
 
fureverywhere said:
I know we tend to wander all over topic...but I started it as to why I would begin to stop eating animals gradually...and it turns into folks sharing their farming techniques. I mean I know a good steak and baked potato can be awesome. But eventually I want to seek out alternatives. It's not about people, it's sympathy for the poor creatures that have to die for such things.
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It is about people in a lot of ways. It's the people who choose what they eat. And some people who promote a more ethical way of eating are saying and doing things that are hurtful to people and ultimately harm the animals. For example, I will never donate to an organization that advocates for farm animals again. The animals lost a supporter because of a person who is seen as a big farm animal rights advocate and gets fawned over all over the internet.

Some of these vegetarian and vegan forums are just awful also.
 
It's sad when people get all self righteous about it. I mean more than just people food even. Mentioning Purina or Alpo on some dog sites will get you flamed right off the computer. What we feed ourselves, what we feed our creatures, is our own personal choice.
 
Kitties said:
It is about people in a lot of ways. It's the people who choose what they eat. And some people who promote a more ethical way of eating are saying and doing things that are hurtful to people and ultimately harm the animals. For example, I will never donate to an organization that advocates for farm animals again. The animals lost a supporter because of a person who is seen as a big farm animal rights advocate and gets fawned over all over the internet.

Some of these vegetarian and vegan forums are just awful also.
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So you don't advocate for animals ......because some forums are awful? That makes me think of my daughter who refuses to try a Krispy-Kreme doughnut......because everyone else loves them.

You know, 'weight' is an issue in our society no matter what and part of the problem is that most of society doesn't realize that there is new science on what is causing it. They have no idea. Most still think it's only lack of exercise coupled with too much food. If I hadn't watched a documentary a couple years ago, I wouldn't know anything about how chemical obesogens are changing our unborn babies DNA and making some of them have the most incredible (maybe impossible) difficulty in losing excess weight and even causing ordinary birth weight babies to suddenly reach a certain age and something changes and they start putting on the pounds.

Let's face it, most find it more fun to 'follow the Kardashians' or talk about the latest blockbuster movies or go to a game than to watch documentaries on health sciences and such. I'm sorry that people give you a hard time about your weight, so unfair and unkind and not the image at all that is the ideal of veganism (kindness, compassion, etc). Things do seem to be improving bit by bit in the animals situation (gestations crates are on their way out in America and to a lesser degree in Canada, restaurants are starting to look for sources that measure up to at least an improved 'minimum' of humane care, people now understand the difference between caged and 'free range' eggs) so maybe there will come a time when the care and consideration that some vegans have for all the animals will extend to people who don't match a preconceived standard of appearance.
 
fureverywhere said:
It's sad when people get all self righteous about it. I mean more than just people food even. Mentioning Purina or Alpo on some dog sites will get you flamed right off the computer. What we feed ourselves, what we feed our creatures, is our own personal choice.
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When I first adopted the vegan lifestyle, I was so angry at the suffering and injustice and the lack of empathy that I was ready and willing to blast everyone. Just like when you read a story about some monster who violated little kids, I had that same kind of anger. My feelings were raw and my rage burned brightly and hot. In the years since, I've learned to discuss in a more constructive way instead of just letting my feelings run away with me, but then I'm on a different life path overall possibly than the other folks you're thinking of and the grief over the injustices to all animals is one part of my 'different path'. Their hearts are in the right place and they simply haven't learned to control the anger.

Mind you, sometimes anger is required in order to effect change isn't it? Do you think that the few good things that are happening for animals would be happening at all if everyone remained mute and private on the issue? I don't think so.
 
Debby said:
When I first adopted the vegan lifestyle, I was so angry at the suffering and injustice and the lack of empathy that I was ready and willing to blast everyone. Just like when you read a story about some monster who violated little kids, I had that same kind of anger. My feelings were raw and my rage burned brightly and hot. In the years since, I've learned to discuss in a more constructive way instead of just letting my feelings run away with me, but then I'm on a different life path overall possibly than the other folks you're thinking of and the grief over the injustices to all animals is one part of my 'different path'. Their hearts are in the right place and they simply haven't learned to control the anger.

Mind you, sometimes anger is required in order to effect change isn't it? Do you think that the few good things that are happening for animals would be happening at all if everyone remained mute and private on the issue? I don't think so.
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I advocate for animals and have felt such rage at times but now am learning that I don't have to be so angry to help animals. I am not vegan but rather mostly vegetarian. I've been blasted and shunned by vegans for eating eggs and cheese. I feel I am doing the best I can right now. But yes, anger does motivate people. But I don't think vegans should be so mad at vegetarians!!
 
Interesting discussion here. I raised hogs for many years when we lived up in the wilds of the Arkansas Ozarks. Hogs were good to consume stuff that we couldn't eat and turn it into high-quality food that we could eat.
Now, our house pig lives in her crate in the dining room- and no, she doesn't smell at all. She learned about housetraining in the first day.
She is much smarter than the dogs, and she understands a great many things that we say- truly- it's ture.
Would I ever raise another hog for family consumption purposes?
Of course I would.
There's a big difference between family pets and family nutrition.
And how did I manage to avoid making pets out of the farm raised critters? I named them after school administrators for whom I worked- principals and superintendents. this made things such as castration and butchering much easier.
Pigs are smart people, in their own way.
Ed
 
Nice one ED. Our pigs just have numbers - and slightly different markings round their snouts. When we first raised the pigs, I wondered how I'd feel when they went for the chop, but I had no problem. I learned the necessary butchery skills from Youtube.

It has struck me that Veganism must be a fairly modern thing. Not long ago, all sorts of items & clothes were mainly made from or used leather - shoes, furniture, steering wheel covers, handbags, belts etc..
 
I was so angry at the suffering and injustice and the lack of empathy that I was ready and willing to blast everyone.

I felt like that after I adopted Sophie. She's a Boxer, German Shepherd, Pibble mix...but my first walk with her and a group of guys yelled " Pit!!!!" and made a run for it. I was a cat person for fifty years, what were they talking about? I began educating myself about the bully breeds and their place in US history. And like you say it made me so angry to read the stereotype of demon dog, when I knew she was anything but. But I stopped being so defensive eventually. Now I can walk my pups with pride and dismiss the people who don't understand.
 
fureverywhere said:
I was so angry at the suffering and injustice and the lack of empathy that I was ready and willing to blast everyone.

I felt like that after I adopted Sophie. She's a Boxer, German Shepherd, Pibble mix...but my first walk with her and a group of guys yelled " Pit!!!!" and made a run for it. I was a cat person for fifty years, what were they talking about? I began educating myself about the bully breeds and their place in US history. And like you say it made me so angry to read the stereotype of demon dog, when I knew she was anything but. But I stopped being so defensive eventually. Now I can walk my pups with pride and dismiss the people who don't understand.
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:encouragement:
 
Bonzo said:
I think becoming a vegetarian

has been one big missed steak
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No, actually being veg'n means being able to look them in the eye and knowing that I am 'part of the joy' in their lives:rolleyes:! Being a veg'n means that I'm working in a huge way to try and protect the health of our planet. And being veg'n means that I'm living consistently with the picture that I have of myself.

My daughter adopted her pit mix, Hooch, about five years ago and she did the same as you fureverywhere. She made a point of learning how to deal with the 'strong' dog personality before she brought him home. Mind you, living in Whistler which is a very dog friendly community, she didn't face the same kind of ostracizing attitude that some areas display. And when people would see her walking him with two ropes for leashes and a halti to slow him down, she made a point of talking to them about how she was helping him learn to relax and get over his issues, but focusing always on his reactions so that she could catch those moments when his energy was rising. By the time she'd had him for about a year and a half, she was taking him to the dog park which previously had been a difficult place for him and then it wasn't long before the leashes came off and he was playing with the other mutts!

One of the things she also always was aware of was that her dealing with his strong personality was paramount to his being able to continue living because invariably, even if another dog attacks a pit (which happened to Hooch several times), there's the very real likelihood that the pit will be blamed. He'd get too focussed on other dogs and she'd just get in his face, grab him by the chops and force him to look her in the eye while she scolded and then the trance would be broken and he'd settle. Thanks to her, he spent his last few years of life absolutely loved and loving and lived in a household with two other dogs(one a chihuahua) and two cats! I think you hit on the key to any strong breed and that's education --- for you, not the dog:). They already know how to be dogs, but people too often don't know how to be the leader of a strong dog.
 
Debby said:
So you don't advocate for animals ......because some forums are awful? That makes me think of my daughter who refuses to try a Krispy-Kreme doughnut......because everyone else loves them.

You know, 'weight' is an issue in our society no matter what and part of the problem is that most of society doesn't realize that there is new science on what is causing it. They have no idea. Most still think it's only lack of exercise coupled with too much food. If I hadn't watched a documentary a couple years ago, I wouldn't know anything about how chemical obesogens are changing our unborn babies DNA and making some of them have the most incredible (maybe impossible) difficulty in losing excess weight and even causing ordinary birth weight babies to suddenly reach a certain age and something changes and they start putting on the pounds.

Let's face it, most find it more fun to 'follow the Kardashians' or talk about the latest blockbuster movies or go to a game than to watch documentaries on health sciences and such. I'm sorry that people give you a hard time about your weight, so unfair and unkind and not the image at all that is the ideal of veganism (kindness, compassion, etc). Things do seem to be improving bit by bit in the animals situation (gestations crates are on their way out in America and to a lesser degree in Canada, restaurants are starting to look for sources that measure up to at least an improved 'minimum' of humane care, people now understand the difference between caged and 'free range' eggs) so maybe there will come a time when the care and consideration that some vegans have for all the animals will extend to people who don't match a preconceived standard of appearance.
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No Debby, I don't advocate because some forums are awful. That's just taking what I wrote and making me sound like some simplistic dim wit. Which is not unusual in my experiences. I just mentioned that those those are no place of support either. My end of helping farm animals was sitting at an event where the co founder of this organization made a comment about "appearance" as part of being a good influence to veganism. I had been a member of this organization for 8 years. Donated hundreds of dollars over the years. Maybe you missed the part where I stated I was deeply hurt and left the event in tears. Previous I had an experience at one of these events where I sat at a large round table. No one talked to me. I got up to get my food. When I returned my liter water bottle and tote bag had been moved. Some tween age girl was sitting in my place. I noted the male watching me as I walked to the table. I had a plate of food in one hand and had to get my items with my other hand and find another place to sit. Guess I wasn't wanted there. Easy to push some middle aged female out.

Believe me, I'm not what these organizations are looking for. In the beginning I had no idea of this but I learned. There are plenty of examples of this on the internet. I should still send them money. I've put up with a lot of abuse and bullying in my life. I can't take anymore. And there really is no support for someone like me
 
Kitties, it was very rude for the girl to move your stuff and take your place and you had every right to tell her so and asked her to move. I think if I was in that kind of situation I would speak up and/or complain to the organization heads about their rudeness via a letter or phone call and let them know that is why there would be no more money from me.
 
Kitties said:
No Debby, I don't advocate because some forums are awful. That's just taking what I wrote and making me sound like some simplistic dim wit. Which is not unusual in my experiences. I just mentioned that those those are no place of support either. My end of helping farm animals was sitting at an event where the co founder of this organization made a comment about "appearance" as part of being a good influence to veganism. I had been a member of this organization for 8 years. Donated hundreds of dollars over the years. Maybe you missed the part where I stated I was deeply hurt and left the event in tears. Previous I had an experience at one of these events where I sat at a large round table. No one talked to me. I got up to get my food. When I returned my liter water bottle and tote bag had been moved. Some tween age girl was sitting in my place. I noted the male watching me as I walked to the table. I had a plate of food in one hand and had to get my items with my other hand and find another place to sit. Guess I wasn't wanted there. Easy to push some middle aged female out.

Believe me, I'm not what these organizations are looking for. In the beginning I had no idea of this but I learned. There are plenty of examples of this on the internet. I should still send them money. I've put up with a lot of abuse and bullying in my life. I can't take anymore. And there really is no support for someone like me
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Sorry I didn't mean to do that and you're right, I should be and am ashamed that I said it that way.

As for not advocating for farm animals, can I ask what you would do if you were at a restaurant with friends and they weren't aware of your affinity for the critters and asked why you didn't order the 'famous burger' or whatever? I do understand about it sometimes being difficult in person to be outspoken (I do great here but chose to be extremely private in person because face to face communications make me very anxious) but when someone has asked me on occasion I generally say something like, "once I became aware of how animals are treated, I decided to not be part of the violence anymore". I guess when I listen to you, my concern is that because some person was less than considerate, that animals who had nothing to do with it, would not benefit by your compassion. Although a decision to not include them in your diet and lifestyle goes a huge way towards reaching out, that I will agree.

Again, I'm sure sorry Kitties and all I can say is thank you for helping me learn yet another life lesson. Sometimes I feel good about my progress and other times I admit to feeling considerably embarrassed. This is one of the latter.:(
 
That is quite the strident reply! By speaking in that matter you are telling your dining companions that they are cruel savages and thereby elevating yourself to a higher plane. You will protest, but that is exactly the spirit of your message.
A more appropriate, gentler and kinder response would be something to the effect; "I prefer not to consume meat due to personal convictions." You see how simple that is? No implied condemnation, no drama, no guilt trip. You all get to enjoy your meals, and your friends don't have anything to talk crap about behind your back. And I can assure you that if you are prone to making these kinds of proclamations to your friends, they are talking or snickering!
 
I've been sitting here looking at your comment Robusta and trying to figure out how to reply to you. It isn't easy, but in the spirit of my reply to Kitties I'm definitely trying.

I understand your point, but I don't think you understand my perspective on the issue of how animals are treated by our society. Perhaps if you had spent as many hours as I have reading and researching the various animal use industries, you might at the very least understand how someone could become as grieved as I feel about their situation. Mostly I have to hide my feelings and never make any mention of how abused they are and watch as the world continues to treat them like they are nothing. I think I've actually made that suggested remark once and I'm still friends with those folks. And on the off chance they decided to talk about me behind my back, then first of all, that doesn't say much about them as friends particularly if they chose to hold me up as an object of ridicule but secondly and more importantly to me, perhaps it may have planted a seed, provoked further thought on what I said, why I said it. Change in the human heart usually happens very slowly and may not be evident immediately or even for years, but if that seed is planted, there's always the possibility that it will take root at some point. And if they chose to be the kind of 'friend' who gossips and snickers, then maybe it's not such a bad idea to let go of those toxic personalities.

I think if you are going to participate in those industries, it is your responsibility to understand exactly what you are participating in. None of us have the right to hide from the results of our actions. If you are going to toss garbage out the window or throw it out to end up on the beach and then in the water, then you should know how you are killing seabirds and other wildlife. If you are pouring used oil down storm drains, then you have to know how you are killing salmon fry. If I say something unkind, then I should find out how I have hurt someones feelings. I think the fact that I phrased it as indicated is a consideration for my listener as I wouldn't and didn't go into the kind of detail that would give them the truest and fullest picture of all that is involved unless they asked followup questions or indicated some interest in continuing the conversation.

Killing animals and eating them is violence and that's just a fact and sanitizing it so that people can feel good not knowing, does nothing for the critters. It doesn't save a life and it doesn't even add any impetus to improvement in animal welfare standards. There's currently a move in society to get sows out of gestation crates and hens out of battery cages. Do you think that would have happened if people didn't become aware of their pain because other folks laid the situation out there for inspection? Those sows aren't moving out of gestation crates to keep me happy because I still won't eat pigs, but it's a sign that many people, have heard, have listened and have begun to care and are demanding 'change' even if they aren't going to make any greater change in this lifetime. And if you are a pig, even those incremental changes are significant.

So if you want to characterize all of that as strident, then so be it. But who ever said any form of evolution, be it physical or spiritual, happens gently and with smiles all around?
 
Why do vegetarians have to constantly be ever so careful how we tell some touchy meat eaters that we choose not to eat meat and why, in case they get offended, yet meat eaters don't hesitate to slam and mock us. I've been going through this since the early 70s when I stopped eating meat cold turkey (no pun intended). It was almost unheard of then, although nowadays we seem to be more a recognized bunch (a bigger proportion of the population I guess) and vegetarian foods are more readily available in restaurants based on today's demand. In so many situations work, social, family I was considered a real oddball -- isn't it time we stopped apologizing to those who seem to find it a personal affront when we tell them we don't want to eat meat and why.
 
Cookie said:
Why do vegetarians have to constantly be ever so careful how we tell some touchy meat eaters that we choose not to eat meat and why, in case they get offended, yet meat eaters don't hesitate to slam and mock us.
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It's a two way street, I love meat of all kinds and I certainly don't mock or slam those choose to live meat free nor do I expect to be criticized for enjoying meat.

I had a very delicious, thick, black Angus T-bone steak this evening and loved every morsel.....it's all about freedom of choice.
 
Debby said:
I've been sitting here looking at your comment Robusta and trying to figure out how to reply to you. It isn't easy, but in the spirit of my reply to Kitties I'm definitely trying.

I understand your point, but I don't think you understand my perspective on the issue of how animals are treated by our society. Perhaps if you had spent as many hours as I have reading and researching the various animal use industries, you might at the very least understand how someone could become as grieved as I feel about their situation. Mostly I have to hide my feelings and never make any mention of how abused they are and watch as the world continues to treat them like they are nothing. I think I've actually made that suggested remark once and I'm still friends with those folks. And on the off chance they decided to talk about me behind my back, then first of all, that doesn't say much about them as friends particularly if they chose to hold me up as an object of ridicule but secondly and more importantly to me, perhaps it may have planted a seed, provoked further thought on what I said, why I said it. Change in the human heart usually happens very slowly and may not be evident immediately or even for years, but if that seed is planted, there's always the possibility that it will take root at some point. And if they chose to be the kind of 'friend' who gossips and snickers, then maybe it's not such a bad idea to let go of those toxic personalities.

I think if you are going to participate in those industries, it is your responsibility to understand exactly what you are participating in. None of us have the right to hide from the results of our actions. If you are going to toss garbage out the window or throw it out to end up on the beach and then in the water, then you should know how you are killing seabirds and other wildlife. If you are pouring used oil down storm drains, then you have to know how you are killing salmon fry. If I say something unkind, then I should find out how I have hurt someones feelings. I think the fact that I phrased it as indicated is a consideration for my listener as I wouldn't and didn't go into the kind of detail that would give them the truest and fullest picture of all that is involved unless they asked followup questions or indicated some interest in continuing the conversation.

Killing animals and eating them is violence and that's just a fact and sanitizing it so that people can feel good not knowing, does nothing for the critters. It doesn't save a life and it doesn't even add any impetus to improvement in animal welfare standards. There's currently a move in society to get sows out of gestation crates and hens out of battery cages. Do you think that would have happened if people didn't become aware of their pain because other folks laid the situation out there for inspection? Those sows aren't moving out of gestation crates to keep me happy because I still won't eat pigs, but it's a sign that many people, have heard, have listened and have begun to care and are demanding 'change' even if they aren't going to make any greater change in this lifetime. And if you are a pig, even those incremental changes are significant.

So if you want to characterize all of that as strident, then so be it. But who ever said any form of evolution, be it physical or spiritual, happens gently and with smiles all around?
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I could not have said it better! Thank you Debby!
 
Cookie said:
Why do vegetarians have to constantly be ever so careful how we tell some touchy meat eaters that we choose not to eat meat and why, in case they get offended, yet meat eaters don't hesitate to slam and mock us. I've been going through this since the early 70s when I stopped eating meat cold turkey (no pun intended). It was almost unheard of then, although nowadays we seem to be more a recognized bunch (a bigger proportion of the population I guess) and vegetarian foods are more readily available in restaurants based on today's demand. In so many situations work, social, family I was considered a real oddball -- isn't it time we stopped apologizing to those who seem to find it a personal affront when we tell them we don't want to eat meat and why.
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Yes, it's getting to be that time Cookie!
 

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