"if people feel strongly enough about this to transition to other gender," Your words, not mine!
Legal definition of a woman
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"if people feel strongly enough about this to transition to other gender," Your words, not mine!
Twostep
Well-known Member
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That was in response to sports.
OneEyedDiva
SF VIP
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Re: Intersex...exactly Mark. Re: Lefthanders...I remember when I was in grade school, the teacher tried to turn me into a righty. It didn't quite work. I still write with my left hand, but I wound up becoming ambidetrous. I only eat and write with the left. The right hand is dominant with everything else. Due to visual issues and having ADD, I no longer read books.
yes they were my words, part of a sentence I wrote - - not sure what point you are making by quoting them though
We all know transitioning to other gender - socially, physically, surgically - doesn't change your DNA or biology - not sure why you need to point that out.
I am also left-handed and my teacher insisted we all turn our papers to the right when we wrote so I now overcompensate with what they call a "left-handed hook". I don't write backhanded so It has become downright painful to write these days and I smear everything. I am also ambidextrous. I write with my left hand but cut with scissors with my right hand. I throw a ball with my left hand but dribble a basketball with my right hand. It is actually said we are using both sides of our brain so I'm okay with it!
OneEyedDiva
SF VIP
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I also cut with my right hand. I turn my paper sideways to write. I had the hardest time trying to figure out which was the best hand to bowl with. Didn't matter, I wasn't good at it with either one.
There are probably a lot of us lefties who are ambidextrous because of teachers and parents trying to make us right handed.
MarkD
Keeper of the Hounds & Garden
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- San Francisco Bay Area
And then there are those of us who have never given any thought to how one should act to emphasize masculinity. Not playing a part here; this is real life. I find those who act out a stereotype of masculinity pathetic.
yes they were my words, part of a sentence I wrote - - not sure what point you are making by quoting them though
So you admit biology can’t be changed, but still talk about “transitioning to another gender” like it’s a meaningful transformation? That’s like repainting a car and pretending it’s a different make and model. You can call it what you want, but facts don’t bend to feelings.
No it isnt like that at all. Analogy bears no resemblance
Of course biology or DNA can't be changed - that isnt something you are now getting anyone t o admit - nobody at any point said or thought otherwise
and yes it is a meaningful transformation ,for those people who feel their biology/DNA does not align with their inner self or mind or soul or however you want to word that.
If they can live as other gender and become as socially and physically that gender as possible then that is meaningful to them.
You don't have to understand it or relate to it yourself to understand how it is meaningful for them. You only need a tiny bit of empathy
Your reply hinges on subjective meaning and emotional validation over objective reality. I never questioned whether the transformation feels meaningful to the individual. Subjective feelings don’t alter objective facts. A person can feel like a tree, a cat, or the opposite sex, but that doesn’t make them one. If you admit that DNA and biology can't be changed, then claiming someone “becomes” the other gender is more of a social performance than a physical transformation.
Anyway, you’re asking me to accept a redefinition of reality based on internal perception. That’s not empathy, it’s submission to a belief system I don’t share. Respecting someone’s dignity doesn’t require me to pretend biological sex is a matter of opinion.
MarkD
Keeper of the Hounds & Garden
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Exactly.
But what underlies this coldly ‘rational’ perspective is the unjustified assumption that human biology only has two possible states where sex and gender are concerned.
You're pointing to rare biological anomalies to challenge the general truth that human beings are sexually dimorphic, that is, biologically male or female. Yes, intersex conditions exist, but they're statistical outliers, not a third category of sex. Using these exceptions to undermine the reality of male and female as biological categories is like using albinism to argue that skin color doesn’t exist.
You’re also conflating gender identity with biological sex, and using emotional framing to imply that rejecting someone's self-perception is inherently cruel or irrational. But no one here is denying the emotional reality of how someone feels, I'm questioning the claim that those feelings can override biological facts.
If someone says they feel like the opposite sex, I don’t doubt that the feeling is real to them. But feelings don’t change chromosomes, reproductive function, or anatomy. You’re asking for public affirmation of an internal belief system, something that goes beyond tolerance or respect and into the territory of compelled ideological speech.
I can respect someone's dignity without pretending their subjective experience changes objective reality.
Oslookar, you are putting up a strawman argument - nobody is saying people can change their chromosomes or their DNA. You dont need to argue that point.
but they can physically change their anatomy and they can live as the opposite gender to their birth gender (what you are calling a 'social perfomance')
Those feelings can over ride biological facts.
Obviously nobody can live as a tree so that is another silly comparison.
but they can physically change their anatomy and they can live as the opposite gender to their birth gender (what you are calling a 'social perfomance')
Those feelings can over ride biological facts.
Obviously nobody can live as a tree so that is another silly comparison.
MarkD
Keeper of the Hounds & Garden
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
Nope. The point is to not be so quick to shoehorn everyone into a binary category which we know does not exhaust the sample space.
I think the shoe is on the other foot .
Edited to say I mistakenly attributed Smiley’s post about “some of us just feeling more masculine” to you.
So I withdraw the suggestion that you are wedding gender to sex. But I also deny I am doing that either.
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Twostep
Well-known Member
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- Tiny town Oklahoma, OK
I am generally right handed, use a mouse with the left (kept noises out of my office computer) and shoot left which looks like major contortions.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Well, let's once again be clear here. I have no gripe to bear with a human who wants to convert to the opposite sex. Honestly, that's their business, and I'm sure it's one that took a lot of time to come to. However, there is a line that for me can't be crossed. So on to the animal kingdom, as you no doubt know, there are some fantastically weird creatures out there.
For example, the Clownfish can change from male to female. It's even part of their "society", as such. If the female of a group disappears, then the dominant male will change his sex to ensure they can continue genetically. Green frogs can change back and forth, depending on environmental circumstances. Still, it's not strictly an "anomaly" in these cases, it's a survival technique.
Of course, they're creatures, and not at the mental level of us humans.
Well, this isn't accurate, imo. While there might be some insecure men out there, that's not what has driven this argument. The points of contention aren't whether these people should, or should not, be allowed to live the life they choose. That, imo, is a misrepresentation. Even in this thread, I've not personally read any naysayer based on thinking the individual can't live their life as they want, and have protections.
The issue is around the law, and which laws should be changed or excused. Ultimately, that solution came down to defining "what is a woman". For example, the Sports issue - should trans women be able to compete with biological women in any given sport? When the question was raised, the initial comeback was that trans women ARE women. Which, of course, then leads to having to define what a woman is. This wasn't brought up as some kind of wild argument, it became a valid topic that needed deciding. After all, shockingly, too many of our leaders couldn't define what a woman is!
If I were dating a person, and they were a trans woman, I'd expect them to be open and upfront about it very early on. If they were a trans-woman, then I confess, I'd break off any kind of intimate relationship I had mistakenly fallen into. But of course, we're all able to make up our own minds, and I wouldn't change that.
Sorry, you've lost me. I read and respond to all different kinds of topics. I state my opinion, and read the opinions of others. I sometimes enter into a discussion with them, as is befitting a discussion forum. So what, exactly, makes you think I have a "personal battle"? Because I have replied more than once? Because - in context - I have reiterated a point or two? Because I'm not the only one here that has done that. I have no "cause" here, just an opinion, just like yours.
See, this is not allowed.
All the humor, and possible humor, has been sucked out of this topic. It's all very very serious now. I mean, cross-dressing males used to be a staple of vaudeville humor, and slapstick. Laurel and Hardy did it, Benny Hill, heck tons and tons of people. Yet now, you're not allowed to find a giggle. So strange, isn't it?
January, I wonder how closely you have followed discussions and debates outside of this forum on the topic? Only, the idea that "well all", in the context of internet debate around this topic, is wildly out. You do know that there are transitioned people who insist, and demand, they are now an actual "woman", correct? I don't want to enter into a debate with you that causes you angst, I'm just curious. This topic has been going on for years...
That’s a clever deflection, but it doesn’t change the underlying biological reality. The existence of rare anomalies, like intersex conditions, doesn’t negate the fact that human sexual dimorphism is a well-established biological principle. Exceptions don’t undo the rule; they prove it. If we based all of medicine, science, or policy on outliers rather than norms, we'd have chaos.
As for your second point: You may claim you’re not conflating sex and gender, but your rhetoric leans heavily on feelings and perceptions to argue against a binary biological model. That is a conflation, whether intentional or not. A person’s subjective identity doesn’t redefine their objective biology. You can reject “shoehorning” all you like, but the sample space of human biology is still overwhelmingly male or female.
Oslookar, you are putting up a strawman argument - nobody is saying people can change their chromosomes or their DNA. You dont need to argue that point. but they can physically change their anatomy and they can live as the opposite gender to their birth gender (what you are calling a 'social perfomance') Those feelings can over ride biological facts. Obviously nobody can live as a tree so that is another silly comparison.
You claim I’m building a strawman, but I’m responding directly to the language and assumptions embedded in phrases like “becoming the other gender” or “transitioning.” If no one is claiming that biological sex can be changed, then we’re actually agreeing on something fundamental: that sex is immutable and rooted in biology.
However, you then say “those feelings can override biological facts.” And that’s exactly the issue. Feelings can override social norms or expectations, but not biological facts. A person can modify their appearance, undergo surgery, and adopt a new name and pronouns, but those are symbolic or social changes, not biological ones. Calling it anything more is a rhetorical overreach.
My analogy about someone feeling like a tree wasn’t meant to be taken literally, it illustrates that subjective identity doesn’t transform objective reality. If a man feels he’s a woman, he should be treated with dignity, yes, but that feeling doesn’t rewrite his chromosomes or reproductive anatomy.
This isn’t about cruelty or lack of empathy. It’s about refusing to surrender reason and objective truth in order to validate someone else’s internal narrative. We can be respectful without abandoning the distinction between facts and feelings.
Babs2u
Senior Member
One wonders if we should not allow tall men to play basketball. Just kidding, I think.
Mitch86
Member
- Location
- Connecticut, USA
Sex organs DEFINE the sex no matter what laws are passed. If a person really had 2 different sex organs, they could then impregnate themselves. I still think only earthworms can do this and they do just that by laying the eggs and then passing sperm to the eggs.
Elsie
Senior Member
Call a trans by their chosen name, not he, she, nor 'it'. Trans to not insist, require non trans to call you he, or she. If non trans don't know your name, tell them it so they can use it instead. Trans, understand that to one who is non-trans it can be difficult/confusing to know how to react with you, and they might unintentionally offend.
Seems to me that neither sex organ probably would not be fully functional to bring about impregnation.
Born_To_Lose
Member
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- Worldwide
Do I really want to post this? Oh, what the hell.
No one can change their sex from what they born at birth. People have made some illogical attempts, but only to be disappointed in the finality of things.
If you were born with a ******, you’re a female.
If you were born with a *****, you’re a male.
There is no in-between and again, no one can change their sex, even if you have your ****** removed and you get phalloplasty to have a ***** installed and breasts are installed by using plastic surgery still doesn’t change your sex. Same with having the ***** removed and getting vaginoplasty surgery to give yourself a ******. Your sex does not change. The final result is that you have become a freak of nature.
Get used to it.
No one can change their sex from what they born at birth. People have made some illogical attempts, but only to be disappointed in the finality of things.
If you were born with a ******, you’re a female.
If you were born with a *****, you’re a male.
There is no in-between and again, no one can change their sex, even if you have your ****** removed and you get phalloplasty to have a ***** installed and breasts are installed by using plastic surgery still doesn’t change your sex. Same with having the ***** removed and getting vaginoplasty surgery to give yourself a ******. Your sex does not change. The final result is that you have become a freak of nature.
Get used to it.
Elsie
Senior Member
I wouldn't say freak, but a hormonal - (whatever) DEFECT. Not to be flaunted as though it were special or great. Homosexuality is not an abnormality deserving the okay to flaunt or use to commit abnormal sexual acts. I have a defect of essential tremors but the difficulty of shaking does not give me the right to use it to get me what I'd like through manipulation.
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