Marriage, what psychologists have to say

I presume "our forum friend" is meant to refer to me. How very condescending you are.

Enjoy your pontificating. I'm outta here...
 

I presume "our forum friend" is meant to refer to me. How very condescending you are.

Enjoy your pontificating. I'm outta here...

No, the "our forum friend" comment so objected to wasn't meant to refer to you, and I'm a bit at a loss to understand why you thought it was, (I expect I'd have said "you" might think this or that, if I meant "you").

Never mind hey, we've come a fairly long way on this discussion and I'm happy enough with it, and for anyone wondering the reason why I refer to anyone as "our forum friend", it is because some forums dont like you to refer to others directly by their forum name. :unsure:.
 
I don't know how many tyrants there are out there, or whether the majority of them are men, but I'm not doubting our forum friend above's warnings concerning fears or dangers arising in some marriages, (its nuanced, though because as I said earlier you'd probably have condemned my own father, but his seven children, and my mother, would all have had a much harder life without his protection, business sense, strength of character, etc.).

The other aspect of children being in danger in some marriages, whilst quite true, and I've no reason to doubt it or question it, but as I'd know probably much better than "our forum friend" who highlighted dangers above, many father's I used to meet twenty years ago in my father's rights campaigning days in the UK would express real fear for their own kids, exposed to the "new daddy", or new man in their ex.'s lives. More divorce, or easier divorce, doesn't therefore necessarily create less risks to children, and some authoritative government organisations have pointed out the very opposite could well be true.

Its upsets some people to say these things, because we all have our own framework or set of beliefs we try to stick to, (the "stickability" business my dear mum used to be so strong on, she couldn't help it though, she was made that way!).

BTW my mother brought me up, and my brother up from a very early age to never hit a woman (/one of my five sisters), and neither of us ever have done. If more mothers felt able to impart that kind of behaviour into their children, you'd have to say the world would be a better place in terms of domestic abuse at least. My dad never hit either of us boys either, so that obviously helps too, but I'd give ,my mother most of the credit. :).
As a general rule, if a couple has come to the decision to divorce it is usually at the end of the road with no hope of reconciliation or of "sticking it out." If I had stuck it out, he probably would've killed me. He hadn't begun the physical abuse yet, but it was coming. And he verbally and emotionally abused me to the point I was nearly suicidal. Now you tell me...do you think I should've "stuck it out" because that's what women were supposed to do? Be good little marital soldiers? I disagree sir. I am now taking care of myself and I am free to control the thermostat, go to bed when I want to without being accused of not loving someone, and I am happier than I've ever been for the first time in years. If he had shown any interest at all in trying to work with me to fix our problems...things could've been different. He never loved me. He only married me so I wouldn't leave him. If I had stuck it out, he'd have been having an affair behind my back and I would've been miserable til one of us died. I don't think any court has a right to tell someone they have to stay where they are not loved and honored.
 

As a general rule, if a couple has come to the decision to divorce it is usually at the end of the road with no hope of reconciliation or of "sticking it out." If I had stuck it out, he probably would've killed me. He hadn't begun the physical abuse yet, but it was coming. And he verbally and emotionally abused me to the point I was nearly suicidal. Now you tell me...do you think I should've "stuck it out" because that's what women were supposed to do? Be good little marital soldiers? I disagree sir. I am now taking care of myself and I am free to control the thermostat, go to bed when I want to without being accused of not loving someone, and I am happier than I've ever been for the first time in years. If he had shown any interest at all in trying to work with me to fix our problems...things could've been different. He never loved me. He only married me so I wouldn't leave him. If I had stuck it out, he'd have been having an affair behind my back and I would've been miserable til one of us died. I don't think any court has a right to tell someone they have to stay where they are not loved and honored.

Dear "forum friend", I have absolutely no reason to question your decision, and hope I didn't come across as meaning to, my own father was not at all like the man you describe as having married, he wasn't vindictive, and certainly loved my mother (though never said so in words in my hearing, as people of his generation probably didn't). he did physically abuse my mother in the first six months of their marriage, but it was a very isolated incident in their marriage, and there was little or no violence at all towards the seven children, and only one of us was ever slapped, (and this same one by both my mother and father following separate incidents of defying them about going out under age drinking or whatever).

very different stories, and as far as mother goes stickability was a great asset, and she benefitted from a character quality she had, and probably couldn't avoid showing.
 
I came across this lady in our UK House of Lords, speaking on the subject of the "Divorce bill" going through our parliament at the moment, here is what she had to say, (sorry its so long):

I shall concentrate on two issues: first, the place of children within the divorce process anticipated by the Bill and the need to uphold their best interests throughout; and, secondly, the way in which the Bill proposes to change the rights of the respondent—that is, the spouse who has not initiated the divorce.

The social science evidence is clear that child development benefits enormously from the stability brought about by marriage. In this context, the state has two important responsibilities. First, it should create a public policy context that positively supports marriage through the provision of proper marriage support services and a fiscal environment that makes marriage an accessible option to all, including those on low to average income. Secondly, it should uphold marriage and divorce legislation in such a way that it facilitates divorce without needlessly aggravating conflict, on the one hand, and which does not thereby undermine the marriage commitment on the other.

I am aware that the justification for the Bill before us today is that it will help to reduce conflict. That may benefit the adults concerned but we should not overemphasise the benefits for children. In the first instance, there are some impressive studies suggesting that the long-term consequence of divorce is far more damaging for child development than the divorce process. That really needs to be understood if one is not to get the benefits of minimising conflict in the divorce process out of perspective. Beneath that, however, there is some important research suggesting that conflict is better than no conflict because divorce without conflict makes no sense to children who, in the absence of better explanations, are apt to blame themselves when things go wrong for no apparent reason. Social scientist Elizabeth Marquardt found that

“The children of low-conflict couples fare worse after divorce because the divorce marks their first exposure to a serious problem. One day, without much warning, their world just falls apart.”

Similarly, research by Alan Booth and Paul Amato found that the break-up of a low-conflict family is more harmful to a child than the break-up of a high-conflict family. If the Bill is to proceed, a lot more thought needs to be given to the role of children in this process and how they will be affected by the proposed change in the law.

I now turn to the way the Bill treats the respondent. It effectively introduces a shift in power towards the person wanting to initiate divorce proceedings, the petitioner, and away from the other party to the marriage, the respondent. In the past, the seriousness of the marriage commitment meant that marriage could not be exited at will but only if circumstances demonstrated that the commitment had been broken. There were consequently some external constraints. Under this Bill, however, marriages are released from these constraints, such that if either party wishes to exit the relationship, they can do so simply by starting divorce proceedings, stating that the relationship has irretrievably broken down. No evidence is required to back up this assertion, so while the statement may, on some occasions, mean that the relationship has indeed irretrievably broken down, on other occasions, it may be nothing more than a euphemism for “I do not like being married to you any more.”

Moreover, the Bill removes from the respondent the right to contest the divorce. This means that once the petitioner initiates proceedings he can be confident that, unless he changes his mind, he should be divorced in just 26 weeks. In creating an unconstrained right to divorce, alongside the removal of the respondent’s right to contest it, it seems to me that, as currently drafted, the Bill is vulnerable to being characterised as constituting a “petitioner’s charter” when in truth it should be a charter for all concerned, the petitioner, the respondent and their children.

I am, however, concerned that this shift in power to the petitioner is greatly exaggerated by the failure of the Bill to require the petitioner or the court to tell the respondent when the divorce process begins. Under the Bill, once the petitioner has initiated the divorce, the 20-week reflection and consideration period will begin. The Government have previously stated in their response to the 2018 consultation that this 20-week period is intended.

“to ensure that the decision to divorce remains a considered one, providing opportunities for couples to change course.”

I am sure we all agree that that is a laudable aim. It is vital that both parties in a divorce have equal time to consider the decision, reflect upon their marriage and, if possible, see if there are ways that it can be saved.

Under the proposed arrangements in the Bill, however, the 20 weeks start running from when the divorce petition is first lodged, not when both parties are aware of it. This means that the spouse responding to the petition may not receive notice of the petition until a number of weeks later, for reasons such as issues in delivering notice, delays at the court or being overseas. In fact, if the petitioner does not want to tell the respondent, there is nothing—as Professor Hodson has pointed out—to require this until the end of the 20-week reflection period.

When the 20-week period is complete, the court must confirm that the petitioner has informed the respondent before issuing the first decree of divorce. If the petitioner says no, the court will tell him that it cannot issue the decree until he notifies the respondent. In this context, therefore, it is possible that the respondent will find out that they are being divorced only six or seven weeks before they are.

Professor Hodson has anticipated the damage this will bring about:

“Everyone can anticipate the trauma, distress and anger this will cause. The previous four months will be regarded by a respondent as a deceitful lie … It will badly affect opportunities to negotiate terms of any separation. It will set back the chance of resolving financial implications. It encourages the worst sort of marital behaviour.”

I anticipate that in response to this concern, the Minister may reply that moving to a system where the 20 weeks starts when the respondent receives notice could incentivise them to avoid being served notice, and thereby delay the divorce. This, however, is no defence for accepting the current arrangements in the Bill, especially as it already seeks disproportionately to empower the petitioner.

One solution to this problem would be to remove the ability of the petitioner to effect service and place it, instead, in the hands of the court. This would give the court control of the process and appropriate levers to incentivise response to service, including the warning of possible default judgments, if a response is not provided, and written warnings on court paper that the respondent may be liable to additional costs if they do not respond to service. There are also options of deeming service has been provided through proof of delivery at a registered address or a sworn affidavit of service by hand, filed by the server, either lay or professional.

In its analysis of other jurisdictions’ divorce laws, the Nuffield Foundation noted that there was a high level of consistency about when the notification period should commence. It said:

“Starting the clock only once the second party is aware of the application ensures that all parties have the same minimum period of notice. This is an important safeguard where the divorce is an unexpected and unwelcome event.”

The details of reforming the delivery of service in such cases must be sorted out by the Government. If this matter is not addressed, I am advised that the law would be vulnerable to an Article 8 human rights challenge because of the difference in treatment meted out on the respondent vis-à-vis the petitioner, and the difference in treatment experienced by those respondents who are notified by their petitioners at the start of the 20-week period and those who are not until the end.


I am concerned that the Bill is shifting power to the petitioner, leaving the respondent and, importantly, children in a very vulnerable position. As things stand, the Bill leaves a lot to be desired and it needs a lot of revision. I look forward to what I hope the Minister will say when he comes to reply: that this is indeed what is needed.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2020-02-05/debates/81678CD1-63E7-4F5A-A70F-44E3B4A4EBEC/DivorceDissolutionAndSeparationBill(HL)
 
@David_in_KW_ON_Canada
How did you help your clients achieve better character?

I have an assessment process I take clients through and then a whole series of assignments and skills people need to develop to improve areas where they are lacking. Also needed is repair from past trauma and correcting the cognitive distortions that come with living. Emotional maturity often takes a lot of hard work facing past hurts and bitterness. I assert that we must learn to embrace and overcome the sufferings of life; many people try to avoid this at great personal & relational peril... I teach people how to develop joy and the strength that is the fruit of true joy.
 
Been in the counselling field for a few decades and my saying is: Marriages aren’t in difficulty, people are. The biggest problems people have today, imo, are: spiritual and emotional immaturity, greed, pride, lust, laziness and lack of hope. Better character grows better marriages.

I appreciate all contributors to this thread, especially from anyone with professional experience to share, and perhaps allow others, like myself, to pick their brains as it were.

I believe it is true to say fundamental aspects of humanity, such as "love" are part of, or tied up with, our unconscious brains, and this means to some extent such feelings are beyond conscious control, as to whom we might feel we love.

Would you agree with that notion?

I think I remember some attempts to argue there is no such thing as a "subconscious brain", and this could be the view of some experts, but what does such a view say about our human dreams, where any of us may imagine or believe all kinds of improbable things until we wake up(?).

My ex. used to say " you can't love anyone else unless you love yourself"(I.e. have high self esteem), and whilst I agree it is good to have high self esteem, troubles come along in most folks lives don't they, and I don't believe it means they stop loving others at the same time.
 
I appreciate all contributors to this thread, especially from anyone with professional experience to share, and perhaps allow others, like myself, to pick their brains as it were.

I believe it is true to say fundamental aspects of humanity, such as "love" are part of, or tied up with, our unconscious brains, and this means to some extent such feelings are beyond conscious control, as to whom we might feel we love.

Would you agree with that notion?

I think I remember some attempts to argue there is no such thing as a "subconscious brain", and this could be the view of some experts, but what does such a view say about our human dreams, where any of us may imagine or believe all kinds of improbable things until we wake up(?).

My ex. used to say " you can't love anyone else unless you love yourself"(I.e. have high self esteem), and whilst I agree it is good to have high self esteem, troubles come along in most folks lives don't they, and I don't believe it means they stop loving others at the same time.

Comments on your "love" statement:

I believe that "feelings" are largely based on our beliefs or the conclusions we have reached based on our experiences in life. Some of these beliefs are so ingrained that we don't realize they are there, yet they can be seen by what we feel and do. As we address the "lies" and wrong conclusions we have reached, and replace them with more accurate and rational beliefs, we can often eliminate or largely diminish the negative feelings & behaviours with which we struggle. This process in therapy is called Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and is highly effective & evidence-based.

So, to directly answer your question about "love" based on my above premise, I'd say that it depends on how you have come to define love and what you believe about love. To say you are not in conscious control of what you experience about love may be initially true, however, I believe that you can become closely aware of what and how you think about and respond to "love" IF you are willing to do the hard work of developing more self-awareness.

Comments on your "esteem" statement:

I think that the idea of not being able to love others unless we love ourselves has to be defined more deeply to be accurately understood and achieved. The idea of loving ourselves has to be rooted in being loved well by others in such a way that we learn who we are and value who we are. If this is accomplished then we can truly love ourselves. So, I say this to emphasize the importance of each of us being well-loved by others. Unless we have been well-loved by others and have come to accept ourselves (as we are) we cannot develop the emotional maturity to love others well. This KEY premise is what good relationship development hangs on! Without being loved well and valuing one's self one cannot love others well. Understanding this and developing this kind of emotional maturity is key to developing a healthy, long-term marriage!

The fact that so little of this level of emotional maturity exists keeps me in business! Thankfully, this kind of maturity can be developed no matter what age you are, BUT it takes a LOT of hard work and persistence. Have hope and work hard at it!

I hope that's helpful...
 
Comments on your "love" statement:

I believe that "feelings" are largely based on our beliefs or the conclusions we have reached based on our experiences in life. Some of these beliefs are so ingrained that we don't realize they are there, yet they can be seen by what we feel and do. As we address the "lies" and wrong conclusions we have reached, and replace them with more accurate and rational beliefs, we can often eliminate or largely diminish the negative feelings & behaviours with which we struggle. This process in therapy is called Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and is highly effective & evidence-based.

So, to directly answer your question about "love" based on my above premise, I'd say that it depends on how you have come to define love and what you believe about love. To say you are not in conscious control of what you experience about love may be initially true, however, I believe that you can become closely aware of what and how you think about and respond to "love" IF you are willing to do the hard work of developing more self-awareness.

Comments on your "esteem" statement:

I think that the idea of not being able to love others unless we love ourselves has to be defined more deeply to be accurately understood and achieved. The idea of loving ourselves has to be rooted in being loved well by others in such a way that we learn who we are and value who we are. If this is accomplished then we can truly love ourselves. So, I say this to emphasize the importance of each of us being well-loved by others. Unless we have been well-loved by others and have come to accept ourselves (as we are) we cannot develop the emotional maturity to love others well. This KEY premise is what good relationship development hangs on! Without being loved well and valuing one's self one cannot love others well. Understanding this and developing this kind of emotional maturity is key to developing a healthy, long-term marriage!

The fact that so little of this level of emotional maturity exists keeps me in business! Thankfully, this kind of maturity can be developed no matter what age you are, BUT it takes a LOT of hard work and persistence. Have hope and work hard at it!

I hope that's helpful...

Thank you for indulging my questions about love and its relationship to self esteem.

I'm a tiny bit disconcerted that you believe my ex.'s thoughts on the need to "love yourself before you can love others", has some merit, (or to love someone " well" anyway).

It is the case isn't it, that men or women entering a nightclub or wherever, and give off signals or "tells" as to whether they find one another attractive immediately, by a glance or other movement. Taking that forward, I'd guess there is some conscious thought as to whether you think the woman you're attracted to might be someone you'd think you could love, (and I suspect we all indulge in a bit of self delusion to start with, which may explain why we ignore, or choose to ignore basic flaws in the other person, and our relationship - for example whether she's truly committed to it?).

I suppose it might help if we tried to define what we think "love" might be, and whether any attempts at defining love are bound to be ultimately inadequate, (in the UK I don't think our legal system uses the word "love" in statutes, maybe for this reason, but in some US states love is used in relation to parents and their children I believe). I didn't automatically love my child when she arrived on this earth thirty odd years ago, but I did come to love her as much as I believe I could have loved any child thereafter, even though I'm estranged from her now.

I may have mentioned a rude ditty my late father used to repeat starting "love makes a man a fool, it takes away his appetite, and.......", but my definition of love would be inadequate I'm certain, if I attempted to define it, except that I'd always assert it contains elements beyond conscious control, and if you thought it didn't, you don't really love that person.
 
Been in the counselling field for a few decades and my saying is: Marriages aren’t in difficulty, people are. The biggest problems people have today, imo, are: spiritual and emotional immaturity, greed, pride, lust, laziness and lack of hope. Better character grows better marriages.
LUST??? Don't we all have that, or most of us to some degree. After all, some folks CAN keep it in their minds and not act on it.

For those who have "none", they might check with a medical professional to make sure that they're still alive. 😰
 
LUST??? Don't we all have that, or most of us to some degree. After all, some folks CAN keep it in their minds and not act on it.

For those who have "none", they might check with a medical professional to make sure that they're still alive. 😰
He doesn't seem to like or respect his clients very much and condescends to them. I would wonder where his degrees were obtained and what schools of thought he adheres to. I have a hunch it's something along the lines of "pray away the gay." Hope I'm wrong.
 
LUST??? Don't we all have that, or most of us to some degree. After all, some folks CAN keep it in their minds and not act on it.

For those who have "none", they might check with a medical professional to make sure that they're still alive. 😰

I did notice the reference to "Lust" too, though didn't immediately jump to the conclusion it must be picked out as a religious aspect of the discussion, (I accept we can all behave rashly, but if you're looking for a long term relationship with someone you might be compatible with, it might be a good idea to get to know them before jumping into bed for example).

Here is a list taken from a religious website about the "seven deadly sins" and they dont coincide with our forum friends list of factors connected with relationship breakdown all that well in my view, (not that I'm sure anyone needs my support in this discussion, but just to be fair, quote: "spiritual and emotional immaturity, greed, pride, lust, laziness and lack of hope"):

Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation.

Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.

Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.

Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.

http://www.deadlysins.com/

Maybe the final word on this could be:
Benjamin Franklin said "In reality there is, perhaps no one of our natural passions so hard to subdue as pride. Disguise it, struggle with it, stifle it, mortify it as much as one pleases, it is still alive and will every now and then peep out and show itself; you will see it, perhaps, often in this history. For even if I could conceive that I had completely overcome it, I should probably be proud of my humility. "
 
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I found this short comment written by a friend of mine, and believe it has some relevance to this thread:

" There are very few, if any, totally equal relationships when it comes to men and women, we all expect them to give us more than we had before they began. I'll ask a silly question to finish and to make a point. How many of the women here would have committed to their partners totally, without their partner, wooing them, giving them gifts and being able to provide the material things in life you didn't have before the relationship began, starting with the symbolic engagement ring, the wedding ring, the wedding, the honeymoon, etc etc. All those things brought the provider an expectation of payment in kind and in most instances it was given, with substantial willingness,......... "
 


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