matter/energy/fields/stuff created or has always existed

David777

David777

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Within infinite past time and infinite 3D space, was matter/energy/fields/stuff created or has it simply always existed eternally past in some form in some places so never had to be created? Stuff includes anything else we cannot sense that is totally empty even of Higg's Field vacuums.
 

And if you accept the 'Laws of Thermodynamics' (tho there are slightly varying versions of them) doesn't it become an existential chicken or egg first question? One of those laws, at least as i first learned it, states that neither energy or matter can be destroyed, they simply transformed. Always thought that raised more questions about beginnings of...well, everything.

Read a scifi short story decades ago where the upshot was that the protagonist's reality, which was collapsing, was a matter of the universe 'breathing' in/out over course of eons in human terms. He just happened to exist on the cusp of its 'inhale'. The idea of both energy and matter recycling endlessly kind of appealed to me.
 
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If the mind is free from the field of relativity and experiences God Consciousness, beyond all energy and all matter, comes a realization of omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence, , present everywhere, and that there was never a time this did not exist nor will there ever be a time it shall cease existence. This is pure being, alive in all creation.
That's my feeling.
 
Gaer said:
If the mind is free from the field of relativity and experiences God Consciousness, beyond all energy and all matter, comes a realization of omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence, , present everywhere, and that there was never a time this did not exist nor will there ever be a time it shall cease existence. This is pure being, alive in all creation.
That's my feeling.
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Your words remind me of the work of Joseph Campbell who wrote "The Power of Myth". This is a free program on YouTube with Bill Moyers interviewing Joseph. It is long...3 hours ( about an hour each ). It delves deeply into these stories of creation/foreverness through world traditions and emphasizes the importance that these stories/myths have in navigating life.

Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth 01 interview with Bill Moyers

Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth 02 interview with Bill Moyers

Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth 03 The First Storytellers Classic Bill Moyers Interview
 
David777 said:
Within infinite past time and infinite 3D space, was matter/energy/fields/stuff created or has it simply always existed eternally past in some form in some places so never had to be created?
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No idea, and I suspect you are asking the wrong people. Not that anyone knows.

For what it's worth its been around as long as I can remember!
 
Paco Dennis said:
Your words remind me of the work of Joseph Campbell who wrote "The Power of Myth". This is a free program on YouTube with Bill Moyers interviewing Joseph. It is long...3 hours ( about an hour each ). It delves deeply into these stories of creation/foreverness through world traditions and emphasizes the importance that these stories/myths have in navigating life.

Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth 01 interview with Bill Moyers

Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth 02 interview with Bill Moyers

Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth 03 The First Storytellers Classic Bill Moyers Interview
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I've never read Joseph Campbell, but would like to read "The power of Myth".. i shall someday!
My interpretation comes from the "Bhagavad Gita", and what I know of the Vedic religion.
Thank you for the links.
 
I think that mass, gravity, space, time are created as we contemplate and search to find what is out there beyond what we know. In a way God creates and we proceed onward so we can become a good society. Our thought is strong and when meditating mass and things can be created out of the space, time and mass. Especially if we meditate and concentrate with groups of people involved with the same ideas.
 
Lawrence said:
I think that mass, gravity, space, time are created as we contemplate and search to find what is out there beyond what we know. In a way God creates and we proceed onward so we can become a good society. Our thought is strong and when meditating mass and things can be created out of the space, time and mass. Especially if we meditate and concentrate with groups of people involved with the same ideas.
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Interesting idea! The mind, however, is only in the relative, fallible state of existence.
The thought from the mind is intensely profound but would have to integrate to the
level of God Consciousness, I think.
This would involve the merging with feelings of the soul.
I think, as this is studied intensely, and thought is intensified, humankind will be able
to manipulate molecular structure and use this thought to affect the world in a positive way.
Wonders, even miracles, we never imagined can be achieved to help the world.
 
The infinite and eternity are concepts that even our greatest human minds have trouble with.

Even our most respected cosmologist scientists would consider any opinions to the question highly speculative. Not something we humans can ever know like "What was before the Big Bang", but can indeed offer ideas upon.

Some may offer that God created it all and could do so because he exists in some other dimension if other dimensions are even possible. Scientists would respond with "then if God exists what created him", an infinite regression as well as the notion of actions without forces. The absolutely incredible fine tuning we find in our current universe points to a god possibly being credible.

Some scientist would relate everything began out of nothing with the Big Bang and because in their opinion time began then too, there is not an infinite eternal past. But then other scientists will argue absolute 3D space and absolute time are independent of our universe even if our mass/energy/fields/stuff is affected so.

Some scientists speculate our Big Bang universe is just the current universe from and infinite number of past cycling Big Bang universes. In that case mass/energy/fields/stuff would have always existed so did not need to be created.

A few scientists have speculated Big Bangs are a lab creation of a God or race of Ultimate Intelligent Entities. The reason is due to the absolutely incredible fine tuning we find in our current universe that supports the notion it all just isn't coincidental and we are just "lucky". If that is true then that also points to mass/energy/fields/stuff always existing, not needing being created.

Personally, I like logic that mass/energy/fields/stuff across infinite eternity past, always existing thus never needed to be created. If so that does not mean what we find in our current universe is all there ever has been across the infinite. It may be that stuff tends to be local and beyond is in part or all truly empty. Compared to infinite absolute 3D space even the 90 billion light year width of our Big Bang universe is an infinitesimal spec. If stuff is here, it is more logical to argue our spec is not so special that it is the only one. It may also be possible that within the infinite past, the infinite 3D space with stuff has evolved over time from a great many Big Bangs where no life existed to one where life developed and evolved with eventual UIE that since that occurred have "fine tuned" subsequent mass/energy/fields/stuff.
 
CrowFlies said:
power of myth was big in the 90s on PBS. i caught every episode.
had the book a long time but it was given away.

id love to see it again...thanks for the links. :):)
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And long before that when in my teen (late 1959-66) i read the translations of scriptures of worlds major belief systems, then i read fairy tales and folk lore from around the world. i noticed the 'archetypal' characters and pervasive themes even back then. Things get 'dressed up' different in various cultures--but the basic themes run thru most all cultures. It led me to feel that scriptures are folklore/oral history blends that get elevated to scripture status. But that's a discussion for elsewhere.

Creation Myths are most relevant to the OP's question--and like other myths there are recurrent concepts in very different cultures.
 
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Chet said:
“Created” assumes a “creator”. I’m not religious so I discount that which leaves “always existed”.
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i get what you are saying, but strictly speaking it depends on who's using the word and what context. i have read science texts that talk of natural processes that create one substance from another or that a blend of others and of 'conditions' (temperature, atmospheric composition etc) converting things existing in those conditions into something 'new'.

i clearly remember reading in my teens that neither matter or energy could be destroyed, but basically transformed back and forth from being one to the other. We have a daily demonstration of matter being transformed to energy--our bodies do it with the foods we consume. From steam engines to combustion ones things with substance are transformed to energy.

i can't recall how long ago, but probably sometime between 1990 and early 2000's i read about tests to look at the process going the other way. Splitting an atom creates massive energy. Experimenters wanted to see if energy could create matter. Don't ask me how they how they isolated 2 little atoms much less got them into a vacuum chamber without breeching the vacuum, but they fired the atoms at each other at high velocity (if i recall correctly). The atoms collided and broke into bits, but when they collected all the bits in the vacuum--there was more matter than that of two atoms they started with.
 
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Since this thread has run its course, for those now in a general audience that would like to read something more, the following is a good read:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220105-what-existed-before-the-big-bang
snippet:

My understanding is that nothing comes from nothing. For something to exist, there must be material or a component available, and for them to be available, there must be something else available. Where did the material come from that created the Big Bang, and what happened in the first instance to create that material? – Peter, 80, Australia...

...Conformal cyclic cosmology offers some detailed, albeit speculative, answers to the question of where our Big Bang came from. But even if Penrose's vision is vindicated by the future progress of cosmology, we might think that we still wouldn't have answered a deeper philosophical question – a question about where physical reality itself came from. How did the whole system of cycles come about?

Then we finally end up with the pure question of why there is something rather than nothing – one of the biggest questions of metaphysics...
 


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