Men are denied the greatest joy in life in that they can't give birth!

You could just just as easily say that women will never have the joy of being fathers.
Of course men can't give birth, but that does not deny them the same pleasures and pains of parenthood.

My children were born at home and I was present at their births. There was nothing shocking or horrific about seeing our children being born into his world and I was able to hold them when they were only minutes old. Subsequently I took my turn at giving them their feeds, bathing them, changing nappies, seeing them take their first steps, reading them bedtime stories etc...

I don't feel in the least deprived.
 

Ralphy, I bet you are surprised by the turn this thread has taken?That's because you don't understand what we women have gone through, or your own wife had easy births?My own births were difficult and painful, with a lot of worry involved. I really don't think it's any better being a Mother than a Father.I know what you are trying to say though.I once asked my husband if he would like to come back as a woman next time and he was horrified by the suggestion.
 
Capt Lightning said:
You could just just as easily say that women will never have the joy of being fathers.
Of course men can't give birth, but that does not deny them the same pleasures and pains of parenthood.

My children were born at home and I was present at their births. There was nothing shocking or horrific about seeing our children being born into his world and I was able to hold them when they were only minutes old. Subsequently I took my turn at giving them their feeds, bathing them, changing nappies, seeing them take their first steps, reading them bedtime stories etc...

I don't feel in the least deprived.
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Awww, you sound like such a good dad!
 

I agree with the Captain, there's enough emotion and joy to go around! Our children were born in a hospital and when our youngest daughter was born, I was allowed to be in the room. Being in the room at the beginning of my child's life was overwhelming!
 
See what you are missing, Ralphy :)

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Ralphy, I think you said the delivery was "bothersome?" A runny nose is bothersome -- labor and delivery HURTS LIKE HELL and goes on for hours and hours and hours -- there is absolutely no glamor whatsoever in labor and delivery! Mom isn't lying there thinking about joyfully bringing a child into the world, she is lying there feeling like her guts are being ripped out, hour after hour.

There is the joy of holding the child the first time, but don't fathers get that, too, I mean if they want their children?

If you men would like to take over childbearing, you've sure got my OK! And probably the OK of most women I know! You can also have all the GYN problems and periods and cramps, and the mess that all that entails, too. Shortchanged??! Humph!!!
 
I agree that women get a biological raw deal compared to men but I feel that their reward is greater. This is hard to articulate but is evident in talking to women...
 
Butterfly said:
Ralphy, I think you said the delivery was "bothersome?" A runny nose is bothersome -- labor and delivery HURTS LIKE HELL and goes on for hours and hours and hours -- there is absolutely no glamor whatsoever in labor and delivery! Mom isn't lying there thinking about joyfully bringing a child into the world, she is lying there feeling like her guts are being ripped out, hour after hour.

There is the joy of holding the child the first time, but don't fathers get that, too, I mean if they want their children?

If you men would like to take over childbearing, you've sure got my OK! And probably the OK of most women I know! You can also have all the GYN problems and periods and cramps, and the mess that all that entails, too. Shortchanged??! Humph!!!
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For sure... but we brought it on ourselves.... you know... Eve and that pesky apple and all..
 
Ralphy1 said:
I agree that women get a biological raw deal compared to men but I feel that their reward is greater. This is hard to articulate but is evident in talking to women...
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OH BS..... Sure.. it's great to hold that sweet baby in your arms.. However, that baby does not remain sweet for long.. AND the rewards for giving another human being all your heart, and soul and everything else you have to give are far and few between. You DO realize these beloved offspring turn into teenagers who despite all the love and care can be the nastiest folks. These little cherubs grow up and leave and PERHAPS call.. or visit OR maybe send a mothers day card... maybe not.. I'm not saying most of us wouldn't do it all again if we had the choice... but I can tell you... some of us wouldn't.. If anyone thinks becoming a mother is going to get you unconditional love and respect, as well as endless rainbows and unicorms from the little darlin' they are living in a dream world..
 
Well, seeing that Eve was a tramp, it is all your gender's fault and you should take full responsibility...
 
Hmm, now that is a stretch, certainly that has never been applied to the ladies on these forums...
 
Ralphy1 said:
Well, seeing that Eve was a tramp, it is all your gender's fault and you should take full responsibility...
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I have always contended that in a paternalistic culture (which the Bible portrays throughout), Adam was at fault for not doing his 'duty' and being present to remind his wife that the apple was off limits. Probably had his lazy backside parked on the couch as he waited for her to call him for dinner! Another way of looking at it.
 
QuickSilver said:
OH BS..... If anyone thinks becoming a mother is going to get you unconditional love and respect, as well as endless rainbows and unicorms from the little darlin' they are living in a dream world..
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The love and respect comes back once they grow up and they say something like: "I never could figure out (when I was a kid) why you had all those stupid rules Mom, but now I understand. You were right.". That finally came after the second baby was born. It's like computers, you get out what you put in. It's just there is usually a very long gap between childhood and that moment, while you wait and wonder if it 'took'.
 
Debby said:
The love and respect comes back once they grow up and they say something like: "I never could figure out (when I was a kid) why you had all those stupid rules Mom, but now I understand. You were right.". That finally came after the second baby was born. It's like computers, you get out what you put in. It's just there is usually a very long gap between childhood and that moment, while you wait and wonder if it 'took'.
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Oh sure.... that's true.. BUT.. face it.. the heartache and worry moments far far outnumber the warm fuzzy moments.. Too many women I see have based their entire existance on their "mother" status.. What I am saying is that if you (general you) do that, you (general) are going to be sorely disappointed. These grown people are not going to return the same intensity.. and neither are their spouses. Many women are left with nothing after giving everything to their kids.. and the rewards of that can be more heartbreak and disappointment. Smart ladies say... OK.. that was nice.. I've experienced motherhood and now my role has changed... and work on their own happiness.
 
QuickSilver said:
Oh sure.... that's true.. BUT.. face it.. the heartache and worry moments far far outnumber the warm fuzzy moments.. Too many women I see have based their entire existance on their "mother" status.. What I am saying is that if you (general you) do that, you (general) are going to be sorely disappointed. These grown people are not going to return the same intensity.. and neither are their spouses. Many women are left with nothing after giving everything to their kids.. and the rewards of that can be more heartbreak and disappointment. Smart ladies say... OK.. that was nice.. I've experienced motherhood and now my role has changed... and work on their own happiness.
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Good points all QuickSilver, but if it's any consolation, you know that the same thing will happen to them. My grandkids are lovable, cuddly, affectionate, etc., but you and I both know (and I refrain from popping my daughters bubble with this info when she's going on and on about them), that as they grow up, it will change and become something different. Good case scenario, they will still love their mom, but they're unlikely to give their lives for her. Bad case scenario, they will simply become distant and unreachable.

While I went through that process of trying to redefine myself once they moved out and I was no longer 'mommy' as I'd been for 20 years, I don't think I've ever felt disappointed as a result of the kinds of changes you mention because I had zero expectations on how it would turn out. If you don't 'expect' you can't be disappointed right? Then all the good things (if any) that come along in any relationship (children, friends, spouses, etc) are a blessing and a bonus. It's when we live with expectations of certain outcomes that we set ourselves up for disappointment. In my opinion anyway.
 
Debby said:
Good points all QuickSilver, but if it's any consolation, you know that the same thing will happen to them. My grandkids are lovable, cuddly, affectionate, etc., but you and I both know (and I refrain from popping my daughters bubble with this info when she's going on and on about them), that as they grow up, it will change and become something different. Good case scenario, they will still love their mom, but they're unlikely to give their lives for her. Bad case scenario, they will simply become distant and unreachable.

While I went through that process of trying to redefine myself once they moved out and I was no longer 'mommy' as I'd been for 20 years, I don't think I've ever felt disappointed as a result of the kinds of changes you mention because I had zero expectations on how it would turn out. If you don't 'expect' you can't be disappointed right? Then all the good things (if any) that come along in any relationship (children, friends, spouses, etc) are a blessing and a bonus. It's when we live with expectations of certain outcomes that we set ourselves up for disappointment. In my opinion anyway.
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No truer words Debby.. It's all a result of our personal expectations.. We have to accept the fact that those are OUR expectations and our children are in no way obligated to meet them. That is where a lot of women get tied in knots.. I have been in several forums where the pain is horrendous regarding adult children. I thankfully have let go and make no demands and I have no expectations. I am fortunate in that I have always had a rewarding career and interests. Many women don't and are eaten alive with sadness at the indifference of their adult children.... pining away for the days of holding that precious little bundle in their arms..

I look back fondly at happy memories, but I'm in no way living in the past.. or even reminising.. Looking back with a clear eye.. the past is never really as wonderful as we have blown it up to be.. Same with motherhood.. It's a great experience but in no way self defining as Ralphy seems to think.
 
My husband was at the birth of our three daughters, born in the 70s, and thought he had done his bit until they got interesting!:D

If men gave birth they would demand 18 years maternity leave, and have only one child as the whole process would be too much for them!:D
 
My moods definitely swing but listening to the King stabilizes them...
 
QuickSilver said:
No truer words Debby.. It's all a result of our personal expectations.. We have to accept the fact that those are OUR expectations and our children are in no way obligated to meet them. That is where a lot of women get tied in knots.. I have been in several forums where the pain is horrendous regarding adult children. I thankfully have let go and make no demands and I have no expectations. I am fortunate in that I have always had a rewarding career and interests. Many women don't and are eaten alive with sadness at the indifference of their adult children.... pining away for the days of holding that precious little bundle in their arms..

I look back fondly at happy memories, but I'm in no way living in the past.. or even reminising.. Looking back with a clear eye.. the past is never really as wonderful as we have blown it up to be.. Same with motherhood.. It's a great experience but in no way self defining as Ralphy seems to think.
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Excellent post! My mother is one of those who would have fit in on the forum you mentioned. Not that I am indifferent to her (we talk at least every four days), but I didn't raise my kids like she wanted, my kids weren't 'granny lovers' when they were young (and yes, it's all on her in this instance - if you knew my mom you'd understand), I didn't see her to the door the way she thought was proper, etc., and she lived with angst as a result, all her life.

Yep, the moral of the life story is, if you want to be happy, DON'T harbour expectations of anybody...just take it as it comes and if it isn't comfortable adopt the 'water off a duck's back' rule.
 
Jeeeez-- Now I know why some mothers kill their young. To heck with the birth stuff, I want to know why women get so many shoe styles.

Kidding aside Quick Ralphy go to the MD and get OXYTOCIN --- take 1 400 unit trouche every 4 hours until you have bonded with everybody in your immediate vicinity.

Yes is Biology.
 

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