New Wildfires in California

[johndoe]

What I want to know is where are all these displaced residents staying? There are over a hundred thousand of them and some don't have cars anymore to get around because they lost them in the fires or abandoned them. I know some are in shelters, but I really only saw on the news about one shelter that could hold 200 people.

Luckily the climate there is favorable unlike the upper mid-west in winter, so just a tent would be a start until better accommodations could be had.

 

[911]

When I watch the news and see the homes and businesses being burned to the ground, it makes me very feel very helpless. I have asked myself several questions and yet when I look for the answers, I get very few. I have been in California during the Santa Ana winds. I don’t believe this is the first time the winds have caused destruction.

 

[wisenior]

It's a little irritating seeing the difference in the treatment of these fires and the hurricanes in the SE.
It's reflective of the difference in the socio-economic class of the people in those areas.


It's difficult to bite my tongue.

 

[Twostep]

It's a little irritating seeing the difference in the treatment of these fires and the hurricanes in the SE.
It's reflective of the difference in the socio-economic class of the people in those areas.


It's difficult to bite my tongue.

Don't bite your tongue. Speak your mind. You are not alone.

 

[StarSong]

What I want to know is where are all these displaced residents staying? There are over a hundred thousand of them and some don't have cars anymore to get around because they lost them in the fires or abandoned them. I know some are in shelters, but I really only saw on the news about one shelter that could hold 200 people.

Many are staying with friends and relatives. Some wealthier people (Pacific Palisades area residents mostly) have second homes. They're also in hotels and rental properties.

 

[StarSong]

It's a little irritating seeing the difference in the treatment of these fires and the hurricanes in the SE.
It's reflective of the difference in the socio-economic class of the people in those areas.

It's difficult to bite my tongue.

Don't bite your tongue. Speak your mind. You are not alone.

Please don't speak your mind on this. Let your better angels rule your words.

If sufferers of hurricanes and fires in the SE US are treated less sympathetically - and I haven't noticed that to be true - that's on the people who behave that way, and shouldn't be pinned on the Californians who are currently suffering devastating losses.

This isn't a competition about whose disaster is worse. Good humans respond to all disasters with aid, comfort and support. We should respond sympathetically when lives are turned upside down for whatever reason.

I'm sorry to say, I've seen a surprising and extremely distressing amount of schadenfreude on this forum regarding these fires.

On an FYI, most of the destruction has involved middle class neighborhoods. The wealthy get spotlighted on the news because it's a more compelling story when people see familiar names. For news outlets, it's all about the clicks and eyes on the screen so they slant the news accordingly.

 

[dobielvr]

It's mainly the cost. I bet they're rethinking that now, after a low estimate of $275 billion in losses so far....the costliest wildfire in Calif.

A desalination plant was approved back in 2015, but there was the question of how it would draw in water. State regulators wanted the intake built below the seafloor, to make sure it didn’t suck up fish and their eggs, but when a study said building that type of intake would cost too much, the plant was un-approved.

Also costly is modernizing and expanding the current system of aqueducts and canals, better forest and flora management, and improved city planning. But all of those 3 combined would absolutely be cheaper than the final tally when this fire is done.

There was some sort of a pilot project going on here in town for a desalination plant to accommodate some of the outlying areas, don't know what ever happened to it. Kind of like that "bullet train" they're building.

 

[Don M.]

A news interview with one of the California officials this morning indicated that some of these California fires may take weeks, maybe months, to completely eradicate. This tragedy appears to be far from ending.

 

[wisenior]

x.com

 

[Murrmurr]

There was some sort of a pilot project going on here in town for a desalination plant to accommodate some of the outlying areas, don't know what ever happened to it. Kind of like that "bullet train" they're building.

The proposed one I'm thinking of was supposed to be built in Huntington Beach. Even though the idea man had investors, I don't think he even broke ground before the whole plan was rejected.

Sad story for the "bullet train" investors; parts of that thing were built but the project was never completed. And it never will be, so I assume they have to just kiss their money goodbye.

Or maybe it was a guaranteed investment (??). IWC, sux for taxpayers, am I right?

 

[Murrmurr]

x.com

Another fiasco.

 

[OneEyedDiva]

Luckily the climate there is favorable unlike the upper mid-west in winter, so just a tent would be a start until better accommodations could be had.

That well may be, but what about the winds? I imagine tents wouldn't hold up so well. And where would they set them up? Here in Jersey, people are evicted from their "tent cities". Perhaps under the circumstances (one would hope), there would be special consideration for people who have to resort to living in tents outside of the wildfire areas.

@StarSong I figured the rich wouldn't have problems with accommodations. It's good that some others can stay with relatives. I'm just seeing a little about alternatives in news reports, but very little. I also saw that an official issued a warning, more than once, to those who engage in price gouging, which apparently hotels are doing. It's a damned shame that some people take advantage of others' misfortunes.

 

[dobielvr]

The proposed one I'm thinking of was supposed to be built in Huntington Beach. Even though the idea man had investors, I don't think he even broke ground before the whole plan was rejected.

Sad story for the "bullet train" investors; parts of that thing were built but the project was never completed. And it never will be, so I assume they have to just kiss their money goodbye.

Or maybe it was a guaranteed investment (??). IWC, sux for taxpayers, am I right?

I read about the HB plant also. The one I'm speaking of is here in the county. I haven't heard a thing about it for a couple of years.

Not sure if the high speed rail was a guaranteed investment, but I'm sure our tax $$$ played a part.
Who is paying for high-speed rail? google says:

High-speed rail development relies on state and federal funding and California's cap-and-trade incentive, which is set to expire in 2030. The authority hopes to secure private investments in the future, according to its most recent business plan, but currently uses none.Mar 21, 2024

 

[OregonGuy]

was the palisades never a good spot to build?

50 years ago I worked for the U S Forest Service and learned even way back then the danger of houses being build on the border of the Angeles National Forest (Palisades eastern border).

The Angeles was/is not a "Forest"; its a bunch of brush. Officials were seriously considering creating a "burn the Angeles" event whereby the public would be invited to watch a controlled burn with fire breaks, pumper vehicles, and arial assets.

Unfortunately (IMO) they didn't do it.

 

[David777]

Although that controlled burn strategy might work in some landscapes with some vegetation types, that is not the case in the City of Los Angeles Santa Monica Mountains.

The reason they probably never did that was because with greater brainstorming and consideration, they realized simply burning small sections at a time of the urban chamise-chaparral interface at the base of the canyons with intervening ribs and the highly erodable sandstone, siltstone, mudstone geology they found thereabouts, wasn't practical long term and short term would result in likely severe erosion if those deep brush plant roots were removed. Such erodable former marine sedimentary geologies are common throughout California coastal ranges with chamise-chaparral one of the only brush species well adapted to it.

CalTopo - Backcountry Mapping Evolved

All those slopes have burned at times over the last century. One can view at least recent decades fire by selecting the Caltopo dot com Map Overlays, Fire History option. It is only within the recent few decades people have built roads and homes into those areas. Some areas are already severely eroded. If they were going to remove chaparral, it would need to be able to cover the significant acreage. There are no other species with robust enough roots able to grow into those soils, they might replace the brush with. What they found does grow are grasses with short weak roots that won't help limit erosion. Planting grasses atop slopes has value with lower gradient slope where cattle might graze but not these steeper canyon forming slopes.

In any case, any such chaparral brush areas so burnt would within a few years be just as physically large above ground as they were before being burned because the roots don't die but rather root sprout given winter rains. Thus would need to have those areas reburned periodically every decade plus as the oily flammable plants grow back quickly in just a few years.

There are mountainous places in our coast ranges where brushes are absent and ground is bare, they are called "badlands" and can be found in limited zones throughout the West. They may have severe weird erosion formations. In California I've explore some of those nearly barren of vegetation places extensively during wildflower springs for example in the Temblor Range of Carrizo Plain National Monument, Anza Borrego State Park, and in Death Valley National Park. Difficult places to climb about through without trails with many steep, landslide prone, loose slopes.

As I related earlier, IMO the only logical strategy building in such high fire hazard chaparral areas is to do so with non-combustables material while accepting high Santa Ana wind with aerial ember fire storms will happen periodically regardless of whatever puny mitigation humans might try, they will need to be able to survive. To not do so, is to accept losses a builder or owner must individually swallow losses for. Unfortunately most of these areas have already been densely built into with ultra expensive homes that were not built to survive such fire events during an era architecture wasn't concerned with fire issues.

Instead, an imagined LIE the real estate industry must love, has apparently forever floated loosely in minds of residents, that fire departments and city planning must have figured protection out. As how else, would all this world class valuable infrastructure have been allowed to have been built over decades if such were not so. Lots of smart people don't seem worried. So why ought I? Each year it never burned only encouraged more of the same, a fool's gamble, sober experts have warned against for decades.

 

[Murrmurr]

I read about the HB plant also. The one I'm speaking of is here in the county. I haven't heard a thing about it for a couple of years.

Not sure if the high speed rail was a guaranteed investment, but I'm sure our tax $$$ played a part.
Who is paying for high-speed rail? google says:

High-speed rail development relies on state and federal funding and California's cap-and-trade incentive, which is set to expire in 2030. The authority hopes to secure private investments in the future, according to its most recent business plan, but currently uses none.Mar 21, 2024

They've been talking about that thing since the late 90s. Construction started in the early 2000s, and stopped within a year. Started again in about 2010, and stopped. Again a few years later, and stopped...

I don't know; seems like more important tax-funded things just keep coming up.

 

[CooCooforCoCoPuffs]

x.com

That is really sad, with the cold January weather on top of it all.

 

[smiley]

are we getting smatter ; more stupider or we just don't care about our neighbours no more??

 

[Murrmurr]

are we getting smatter ; more stupider or we just don't care about our neighbours no more??

We're definitely getting smattered.

 

[rgp]

It's a little irritating seeing the difference in the treatment of these fires and the hurricanes in the SE.
It's reflective of the difference in the socio-economic class of the people in those areas.


It's difficult to bite my tongue.

When we're talking Malibu, Palisades , Hollywood etc. and comparing that to the S/E we're comparing the beautiful people to the regular people. Guess who gets the attention .

That x.com link is a true eye opener . Did ya notice that the man in it, even amidst all his destruction, wished those in LA to get the help they need ?

We have a new administration about to take over, I hope they see the needs on both coast , and do better to fill those needs.

 

[bobcat]

I wonder if releasing more sagebrush and chaparral eating animals might work (Jackrabbits, goats, etc...). They wouldn't destroy the roots of the plants, so erosion prevention would still be preserved, but they would daily nibble on the plants to keep them small. You would still need to make small ponds for them to drink. Just a thought.

 

[HermitHogan]

x.com

Federal Assistance for Hurricane Helene Exceeds $344 Million as FEMA Expands Dual Response Efforts as Hurricane Milton Forecast to Make Landfall This Evening​

More than 8,000 federal workers from all parts of the country are supporting the response efforts in six states and three Tribal Nations for both Hurricanes Helene and Milton. As the agency prepares for Hurricane Milton’s impacts to Florida, these assets remain in partnership with state, tribal and local partners to support of Hurricane Milton recovery efforts to ensure every available resource is mobilized.
Federal Assistance for Hurricane Helene Exceeds $344 Million as FEMA Expands Dual Response Efforts as Hurricane Milton Forecast to Make Landfall This Evening

Meanwhile, some politicians are saying that conditions should be placed on California wildfire aid.

 

[wisenior]

My former neighborhood in Fort Myers Beach, FL
is still recovering from Hurricane Ian.

28, Sep, 2022.

 

[StarSong]

My former neighborhood in Fort Myers Beach, FL is still recovering.

28, Sep, 2022.

I'm sorry for your former neighbor. Recovery from a widespread disaster isn't a swift process, sad to say. It took Lahaina, Maui (Hawaii) a year to just get rid of the debris after the terrible fires there in summer 2023.

Undoubtedly many victims of the Los Angeles fires will still be deep in the process three years hence whether or not they were insured.

 

[OregonGuy]

View attachment 396414

Although that controlled burn strategy might work in some landscapes with some vegetation types, that is not the case in the City of Los Angeles Santa Monica Mountains.

The reason they probably never did that was because with greater brainstorming and consideration, they realized simply burning small sections at a time of the urban chamise-chaparral interface at the base of the canyons with intervening ribs and the highly erodable sandstone, siltstone, mudstone geology they found thereabouts, wasn't practical long term and short term would result in likely severe erosion if those deep brush plant roots were removed. Such erodable former marine sedimentary geologies are common throughout California coastal ranges with chamise-chaparral one of the only brush species well adapted to it.

CalTopo - Backcountry Mapping Evolved

All those slopes have burned at times over the last century. One can view at least recent decades fire by selecting the Caltopo dot com Map Overlays, Fire History option. It is only within the recent few decades people have built roads and homes into those areas. Some areas are already severely eroded. If they were going to remove chaparral, it would need to be able to cover the significant acreage. There are no other species with robust enough roots able to grow into those soils, they might replace the brush with. What they found does grow are grasses with short weak roots that won't help limit erosion. Planting grasses atop slopes has value with lower gradient slope where cattle might graze but not these steeper canyon forming slopes.

In any case, any such chaparral brush areas so burnt would within a few years be just as physically large above ground as they were before being burned because the roots don't die but rather root sprout given winter rains. Thus would need to have those areas reburned periodically every decade plus as the oily flammable plants grow back quickly in just a few years.

There are mountainous places in our coast ranges where brushes are absent and ground is bare, they are called "badlands" and can be found in limited zones throughout the West. They may have severe weird erosion formations. In California I've explore some of those nearly barren of vegetation places extensively during wildflower springs for example in the Temblor Range of Carrizo Plain National Monument, Anza Borrego State Park, and in Death Valley National Park. Difficult places to climb about through without trails with many steep, landslide prone, loose slopes.

As I related earlier, IMO the only logical strategy building in such high fire hazard chaparral areas is to do so with non-combustables material while accepting high Santa Ana wind with aerial ember fire storms will happen periodically regardless of whatever puny mitigation humans might try, they will need to be able to survive. To not do so, is to accept losses a builder or owner must individually swallow losses for. Unfortunately most of these areas have already been densely built into with ultra expensive homes that were not built to survive such fire events during an era architecture wasn't concerned with fire issues.

Instead, an imagined LIE the real estate industry must love, has apparently forever floated loosely in minds of residents, that fire departments and city planning must have figured protection out. As how else, would all this world class valuable infrastructure have been allowed to have been built over decades if such were not so. Lots of smart people don't seem worried. So why ought I? Each year it never burned only encouraged more of the same, a fool's gamble, sober experts have warned against for decades.

Thank you for your comprehensive post.