Laurie
Senior Member
- Location
- Kingdom of Fife
My apologies if this has come up elsewhere, but I just wanted to pay a Brit tribute to the guys that never got to sit under the apple tree again.
Okinawa 70 Years On
- Thread starter Laurie
- Start date
Debby
Well-known Member
- Location
- East coast of Canada
And I'll pay homage to the Japanese elderly, mothers and children who never got to view the cherry blossoms again.
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
The difference dear Debby, is the Japanese brought it upon themselves. Have any feelings for the 3,600 Americans killed or wounded at Pearl Harbor? I don't weep for the Japanese.
"And I'll pay homage to the Japanese elderly, mothers and children who never got to view the cherry blossoms again."
Yes Japanese civilians suffered during World War II. But the Japanese and culture were not all that innocent during World War II. They pillaged their way through Korea and used Korean women as sex slaves. Just a few days ago a lawsuit was filed against Japan for World War II atrocities in Korea.
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/world/s...ii-to-sue-japan-for-compensation-1010647.html
The same culture produced the Bataan Death March. It wasn't just a mad dog military mentality it was a believe in the culture that they were superior among other things.
Did Japanese civilians ever call for peace or attempt an overthrow like the Germans did with Hitler in WWII?
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
Over 14,000 allied troops, mostly American and British died on that little piece of land, so don't tell me how sad for the aggressor who wrought the dividends of having started it.
Debby
Well-known Member
- Location
- East coast of Canada
You always do this don't you Jim? I express sympathy for innocent people killed by soldiers and you make me out to be a hater. Of course I am sympathetic to the Americans who are killed in any war, but I'm also not blinded by white, patriotic fervour. Government officials (in one country or another) start a war, force their young men to go, other governments start thumping their chests and send their young people to war and I think it's something like 95% of the dead wind up being the civilians (most of whom didn't want a war in the first place).
And Japan's 500,000 civilian deaths trumps your 14,000 soldiers.
If your government gets you killed by a bomb dropped on your backyard by someone they antagonized, should I hold my sympathy for you....or your adorable grandkids? Maybe even infer that it's your own fault? Didn't you just recently have a new little one added to your family? Why are Japanese children or women or old people, less worthy than ours?
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
The answer is simple, the Japanese brought about this upon themselves. Their people would have never suffered the horror of war had they not started one. I resent the implication that "I always do this". I did not make you out a hater. I do think your sympathies are misplaced however. Let's agree, as friends, to disagree.
Didn't we cover this in a previous thread regarding the A-bombs on Japan being justified as a means to end the war?
If I recall, forum Americans were unanimous in their belief that the decimation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was justified because as little children you were 'so scared'. Because you were so 'afraid' (perpetuated by the propaganda of the time via radio news that it was the only way to end the war) that meant it was OK to bomb the Japanese. Not very convincing to me, boys and girls.
If I recall, forum Americans were unanimous in their belief that the decimation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was justified because as little children you were 'so scared'. Because you were so 'afraid' (perpetuated by the propaganda of the time via radio news that it was the only way to end the war) that meant it was OK to bomb the Japanese. Not very convincing to me, boys and girls.
Debby
Well-known Member
- Location
- East coast of Canada
There are people who would say that 9/11 was a direct result of the American administration's meddling and manipulating in the ME. Did you bring that on yourselves?
Someone here has several times implied on old threads that I 'hate America' or variations of that as a result of my political opinions and if it wasn't you, then I do apologize. But my point stands, that having sympathy for the civilians of a country who are slaughtered by any warring groups is not a bad thing and they deserve our consideration and sympathy too. There 'but for the grace of God' go us... yes, I know, slightly awkward paraphrase but you know what I mean I hope. It's never been our 'modern day' cities that have been razed and left in heaps of rubble by a foreign power. It hasn't been our moms and grandma's and papa's and little children who've hidden in basements to try and escape the bombs. We've been lucky that way.
It always seems to me that any nods of approval or appreciation for destruction wrought by ones own army is an acceptance that war is necessary. And as long as the worlds people think that way, it's super easy for governments to prod us into war with all manner of propaganda and deceipt and lies. Canada used to be a nation of peace keepers. Our military was known for that. Now our personal little war monger, Steven Harper is having a blast playing God and has changed our image. I would rather be known as the peaceful nation.
Someone here has several times implied on old threads that I 'hate America' or variations of that as a result of my political opinions and if it wasn't you, then I do apologize. But my point stands, that having sympathy for the civilians of a country who are slaughtered by any warring groups is not a bad thing and they deserve our consideration and sympathy too. There 'but for the grace of God' go us... yes, I know, slightly awkward paraphrase but you know what I mean I hope. It's never been our 'modern day' cities that have been razed and left in heaps of rubble by a foreign power. It hasn't been our moms and grandma's and papa's and little children who've hidden in basements to try and escape the bombs. We've been lucky that way.
It always seems to me that any nods of approval or appreciation for destruction wrought by ones own army is an acceptance that war is necessary. And as long as the worlds people think that way, it's super easy for governments to prod us into war with all manner of propaganda and deceipt and lies. Canada used to be a nation of peace keepers. Our military was known for that. Now our personal little war monger, Steven Harper is having a blast playing God and has changed our image. I would rather be known as the peaceful nation.
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
Cookie, The Japanese believed Hirohito was a god on earth. They died by the thousands at their own hands due to their fatalistic view of themselves. Japan believed the allies would have to invade the mainland to try in and finish the war. Their civilian population from the oldest to the small school children were prepared to fight any invader. Those children were even taught to sharpen bamboo to use as weapons. Military analysts calculated it would cost literally millions of lives, both Japanese and allies to make such an invasion. THAT is why America in concert with allies demonstrated to the Japanese we had a new and very powerful weapon and sought surrender. It didn't come. I praise our decision to save lives in a war that had already killed so many. Thank you Harry Truman for having the courage to do what had to be done. That is my position and I won't argue it. When Truman dropped the bombs, I was 10 years old.
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
I choose to pass this by, though it's implications bring forth deep feelings. Sometimes it's best just to walk away from what could be a heated and protracted argument.
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
Well said. Don't forget, also what they did in China. The Japanese were brutal and cruel, I won't even mention their horrible torture technique.
Debby
Well-known Member
- Location
- East coast of Canada
Many of the things that you've said about the Japanese population would more than likely be exactly what Americans or Canadians would do if an invader attacked us in our country. Different methods perhaps, but a determination to protect home and hearth. So can you really hold that against them?
As for the millions of lives that would be lost without the bombs, well, there is a professor at Princeton University who's written an article that casts doubt on that assertion. In fact he calls it a 'strange myth'. http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/atombomb/strange_myth/article.html It's a very interesting read and I think he suggests (based on historians reviews of the documents of that era) that it was a justification that was promulgated by the administration as a result of a developing discomfort by American civilians who heard what happened to the people as they were either incinerated or sickened and died.
He ends his discussion with the following statement:
'......For nearly four decades, the belief that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs averted hundreds of thousands of American deaths -- far more than those bombs inflicted on the Japanese -- has been a part of accepted history. It was this judgment, more than any other factor, that seemed to give legitimacy to the American use of nuclear weapons. Discovering that this premise was false should help to stimulate a hard rethinking of other premises of U.S. nuclear weapons policies.
As for the millions of lives that would be lost without the bombs, well, there is a professor at Princeton University who's written an article that casts doubt on that assertion. In fact he calls it a 'strange myth'. http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/atombomb/strange_myth/article.html It's a very interesting read and I think he suggests (based on historians reviews of the documents of that era) that it was a justification that was promulgated by the administration as a result of a developing discomfort by American civilians who heard what happened to the people as they were either incinerated or sickened and died.
He ends his discussion with the following statement:
'......For nearly four decades, the belief that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs averted hundreds of thousands of American deaths -- far more than those bombs inflicted on the Japanese -- has been a part of accepted history. It was this judgment, more than any other factor, that seemed to give legitimacy to the American use of nuclear weapons. Discovering that this premise was false should help to stimulate a hard rethinking of other premises of U.S. nuclear weapons policies.
(c) 1985 by the President and Fellows of Harvard College and of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Taken under the consideration that the US government gave itself permission for ' Nuclear First Strike' in 2010 and the renewed cold war mentality that has swept across the West, we perhaps should be preparing ourselves for what happened to the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Taken under the consideration that the US government gave itself permission for ' Nuclear First Strike' in 2010 and the renewed cold war mentality that has swept across the West, we perhaps should be preparing ourselves for what happened to the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
We all know what the Japanese during WWII were about. All water under the bridge now, but I would consider this a matter of ethics. Can any country who does such a thing consider themselves less of a monster than those 'threatening to invade'? The crimes on both sides were heinous, and the one with the most power won. Isn't that the nature of war. The US had the most powerful bomb and used it, and I wonder, if circumstances presented themselves, would this again be an option? Is this how you define courage? No response required.
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
No response tendered.
Debby
Well-known Member
- Location
- East coast of Canada
To WhatInThe, I would suggest that most cultures think they are superior, exceptional, better than the next guy......so again, while you are pointing at the Japanese for holding that attitude, remember that there are three fingers pointing back at yourself. When we refuse to recognize the humanity of others, we lay the groundwork for more conflict and hatred whether it be country against country, colour against colour, religion against religion......and it never goes well and it's always civilians who die in droves.
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
Debby, you are a wonderful human, but you are extremely naive. I guess you needed to be here for the show.
Many cultures do think highly of themselves but how many actually try to take over entire regions of the planet. Not a country but an entire hemisphere and sign a pact with others trying to do the samething. They used military invasions and occupations without compunction.
I wouldn't doubt there was collateral damage but the suicidal civilian cliff jumpers basically confirm they full well knew they were in a war and the allies would be the victors ruling over them. Why did they fear the allies because they bought and probably followed what was told to them by their Imperial rulers hook, line and sinker. They were loyal to a fault but that is their culture.
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
"They were loyal to a fault but that is their culture". Exactly as I said earlier and a justification for our bombs.
Debby
Well-known Member
- Location
- East coast of Canada
I think it's okay to despise someones culture, their food, their God-Emporer or whatever because these are all just ideas that groups of people make up about themselves but at the most basic level, we're all just people and doesn't there come a point, so many years later, when we can just for a moment, recognize and honour their humanity and their suffering and their loss of life? It doesn't make us less human, or less good, or less loyal.
Anyway, on that note I'm going to withdraw from this conversation. And I know, I'm probably coming off maybe as a little 'holier than thou' and I'm sorry, really I am. Don't mean to at all. It's just that I find the suffering of anyone to be just the most horrible proposition, no matter who they are. Once we're dead, we feel nothing and it's all good again. But when people or animals suffer and are afraid and hopeless..................to me that's unthinkable!
So good night folks, late here and I'm off before I start rambling
.
Debby
Well-known Member
- Location
- East coast of Canada
Oh golly, you didn't just say that did you? Who invaded Iraq? Afghanistan? Libya? Wanted to invade Syria? Hmmm, give me some time to do research on that. And then there was Haiti, where that popular president was whisked away into exile in the middle of the night. Hmmm wonder who did the whisking? Vietnam, Cambodia (before the Khmer Rouge came in and further decimated that already bloodied population?
And now I just remembered that I was off to bed when I made that last fateful glance at my screen so for the last time...good night
Oh golly, you didn't just say that did you? Who invaded Iraq? Afghanistan? Libya? Wanted to invade Syria? Hmmm, give me some time to do research on that. And then there was Haiti, where that popular president was whisked away into exile in the middle of the night. Hmmm wonder who did the whisking? Vietnam, Cambodia (before the Khmer Rouge came in and further decimated that already bloodied population?
And now I just remembered that I was off to bed when I made that last fateful glance at my screen so for the last time...good night
Yes I did dear. You mention these countries & events without context which was not similar to what Japan did leading to or during World War II. Haiti, Libya and Vietnam aren't even in the same hemisphere. Iraq/Gulf War II was the only full scale military invasion.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Wars don't start in a flash one day. They are seldom started by one nation although the winners get to write the history books.
From Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Events_leading_to_the_attack_on_Pearl_Harbor
Perhaps it is appropriate to acknowledge the losses on both sides, especially the hapless civilians.
Laurie
Senior Member
- Location
- Kingdom of Fife
Oh for Heaven's sake.
I meant to pay a simple tribute to a bunch of guys who I never met and who I now never will, but who did the same as young men were doing from all over the world at that time, doing what they thought was right for their country.
It is always sad when young men have to go out to kill each other for the sake of old mens' ' ambitions, but if you want to go on about the futility of war, or the perfidy of the Japanese, bugger off elsewhere and start your own thread.
Thanks guys, you made it possible for people to express views like these, denigrating and belittling your sacrifice.
I was a bit surprised when none of our American members mentioned this anniversary. Now I understand why.
I meant to pay a simple tribute to a bunch of guys who I never met and who I now never will, but who did the same as young men were doing from all over the world at that time, doing what they thought was right for their country.
It is always sad when young men have to go out to kill each other for the sake of old mens' ' ambitions, but if you want to go on about the futility of war, or the perfidy of the Japanese, bugger off elsewhere and start your own thread.
Thanks guys, you made it possible for people to express views like these, denigrating and belittling your sacrifice.
I was a bit surprised when none of our American members mentioned this anniversary. Now I understand why.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Please don't get all huffy Laurie. Next time it might help if you pad your OP out a little to set the context. I've heard of Okinawa but know little about it so I've had to look up the details. This is what I found
American
Japanese
This was definitely a very bloody battle. More details of casualties and losses
American
Manpower:
65-80,000[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP]
c.7,000 dead
c.31-40,000 wounded
c.30,000 non-combat losses
Navy losses:
c.10,000 (5,000 dead)
Material:
38 ships
763 aircraft[SUP][7][/SUP]
225 tanks
65-80,000[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP]
c.7,000 dead
c.31-40,000 wounded
c.30,000 non-combat losses
Navy losses:
c.10,000 (5,000 dead)
Material:
38 ships
763 aircraft[SUP][7][/SUP]
225 tanks
Japanese
Manpower:
From 77,166 killed[SUP][8][/SUP] to 110,000 killed (U.S. Estimate)[SUP][9][/SUP]
More than 7,000 captured[SUP][9][/SUP]
Material:
16 ships
7,800 aircraft[SUP][10][/SUP]
27 tanks
743 artillery pieces
From 77,166 killed[SUP][8][/SUP] to 110,000 killed (U.S. Estimate)[SUP][9][/SUP]
More than 7,000 captured[SUP][9][/SUP]
Material:
16 ships
7,800 aircraft[SUP][10][/SUP]
27 tanks
743 artillery pieces
40,000–150,000 civilians killed.