Marie5656
SF VIP
- Location
- Batavia, NY
Question for the Atheist
- Thread starter Mr. Ed
- Start date
Mr. Ed
Be what you is not what you what you ain’t
- Location
- Central NY
God, Christianity Bible Jesus certainly are controversial. You either believe or you don’t and no one actually knows for certain because there haven‘t been any up to date information in over 2000 years.. Whether you believe or not is your prerogative
George Carlin was so brilliant!
I'm always flabbergasted by the number of people who still, in this day and age, do not understand what science is.
Science is not a religion, or a substitute for religion. They are two completely different things. Science doesn't provide permanent, unarguable answers. We are not obliged to believe in the findings of science just because somebody told us to, or wrote it down in a book. It's just the latest findings, provable and constantly changing, as we learn more and more about the cosmos, the planet, plant and animal life, disease, etc. Science is a way of investigating the way things are, or the way they appear to be. The findings can always be contradicted as we learn more and more.
Worship and belief in a sacred being of some sort, who plays favorites, issues tyrannical orders, and can be pleaded with, is totally different from science. It's incredible to me, when we see one of those videos or read a book about the size of the universe, and the tinyness of this little grain of sand we are living on, that people actually believe that God cares which team wins the football game.
I think George Carlin hit the nail right on the head.
Science is not a religion, or a substitute for religion. They are two completely different things. Science doesn't provide permanent, unarguable answers. We are not obliged to believe in the findings of science just because somebody told us to, or wrote it down in a book. It's just the latest findings, provable and constantly changing, as we learn more and more about the cosmos, the planet, plant and animal life, disease, etc. Science is a way of investigating the way things are, or the way they appear to be. The findings can always be contradicted as we learn more and more.
Worship and belief in a sacred being of some sort, who plays favorites, issues tyrannical orders, and can be pleaded with, is totally different from science. It's incredible to me, when we see one of those videos or read a book about the size of the universe, and the tinyness of this little grain of sand we are living on, that people actually believe that God cares which team wins the football game.
I think George Carlin hit the nail right on the head.
ElCastor
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern CA
As an agnostic I accept that the universe is eternal and vast beyond our understanding. To make a definitive statement concerning our origin and the nature of the universe is unsupportable. I accept that I cannot know or deny the existence of a God, but I would never challenge those who do believe. I admit a certain envy when I see those who are lined up to enter church on a Sunday morning. Their religion is in large part the origin of our understanding of human organization and morality.
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VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
I was chatting with someone today, and I came to a realization I really should have considered before. You see, as an atheist type (I'm more agnostic) I wholly believe there is life on other planets. I just cannot fathom the idea that life doesn't exist elsewhere in the Universe. I'm confident enough to say, there IS life on other planets, we've simply not found it yet. I believe it is supported mathematically, but whatever.
But what I'd never done is considered this against a belief in God, and the realization that people of faith, and someone like myself, have a lot in common. We tend to think in terms of radical black and white, one believes in God, the other does not. That's true, but it's not the whole story.
The wider story is - we both believe there is something out there. We both believe we're not alone. We both believe that on our demise, something living will go on. And I'll extend that idea - because if we are truly alone in this universe, the only living planet, then this is a really really lonely place. Can you imagine infinity with only one pin prick of life? Who would want that burden?
So, similar to those with belief, the idea of there being nothing left after death is pretty horrendous. We don't want to think we're alone, and that after us is simply blackness. That in 4 billion years, when the Sun eats planet Earth, that everything is simply gone.
Of course, believers have a heaven to go to, or some other "reward" system, and someone like myself, we have just the idea that my own end isn't the end of anything but myself, and that life itself is what continues on. But it's certainly been an interesting thought to consider.
But what I'd never done is considered this against a belief in God, and the realization that people of faith, and someone like myself, have a lot in common. We tend to think in terms of radical black and white, one believes in God, the other does not. That's true, but it's not the whole story.
The wider story is - we both believe there is something out there. We both believe we're not alone. We both believe that on our demise, something living will go on. And I'll extend that idea - because if we are truly alone in this universe, the only living planet, then this is a really really lonely place. Can you imagine infinity with only one pin prick of life? Who would want that burden?
So, similar to those with belief, the idea of there being nothing left after death is pretty horrendous. We don't want to think we're alone, and that after us is simply blackness. That in 4 billion years, when the Sun eats planet Earth, that everything is simply gone.
Of course, believers have a heaven to go to, or some other "reward" system, and someone like myself, we have just the idea that my own end isn't the end of anything but myself, and that life itself is what continues on. But it's certainly been an interesting thought to consider.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Sadly, I think you're banging your head against the wall on this one. What's really interesting is if you watch Social Media closely enough, you'll see someone mention "Science is a religion", and then see it grow as people consume the content and propagate it.
Anyone who thinks Science is a religion has a fundamental misunderstanding of what it is. Period. A belief in a process is not a belief in any God, and a religious belief requires a God of some kind. Why? Because words matter, and words have definitions.
MarkD
Keeper of the Hounds & Garden
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
I’m inclined to think it is up to us to decide what it is we “believe in”, but I don’t think belief in something is optional. What we think are true facts about this and that should not be regarded as up to us; if they matter we need to make the effort to be informed and pay attention to sources.
What we believe in can never be reduced to finite facts but is something that is constantly confirmed or challenged by living. Religion provides an armature on which to hold what one believes in which can help to keep that present as we negotiate our way through the world of facts and tasks. What we believe in is a container which carries the meaning we find in life. To reduce that to a list of facts would be dehumanizing IMO.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Well, to believers, we (as atheist types) are told we're going to hell, and will suffer for all time. It's not great, is it?
Knight
Well-known Member
From your post # 281Well, to believers, we (as atheist types) are told we're going to hell, and will suffer for all time. It's not great, is it?
Quote
"That in 4 billion years, when the Sun eats planet Earth, that everything is simply gone."
Good thing we won't be around. Right! The story is God made heaven & earth so destruction should be attributed to the creator. Pretty sure those with faith in a merciful God will be disappointed.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
It's really fascinating, at least for me, to accept that our continued existence on this planet - albeit over a LOT of years - inevitably ends. Human kind, and Earth, simply cannot survive if all our eggs are in this particular basket. In between now and 4 billion years, goodness knows the effects the change will bring about for life on Earth. Either way, this particular boat is going down.
Quite what a God had in mind when he decided on this time limit, I don't know.
"God, Christianity Bible Jesus certainly are controversial. You either believe or you don’t and no one actually knows for certain because there haven‘t been any up to date information in over 2000 years.. Whether you believe or not is your prerogative"
Yes, but Mr. Ed, human beings have always and continue to "believe" in all sorts of things. And it's our prerogative to believe in all sorts of nonsense, which doesn't make it real. Ghosts, goblins, demons, gremlins, Satan. Many diverse gods, often warring with each other. A kind, loving "father," sort of like the grandfather some of us have had, or wish we did. A mean, punitive, fearful ruler who needs constant praise and loyalty, because he demands it.
(It's even controversial what pronouns we humans should use these days, but somehow God is usually portrayed as a "he.") The tooth fairy. The boogey man. Santa Claus. Little spirits inhabiting plants and animals. Dead people who listen to our prayers and can change the way things turn out. They are called saints. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Your phrasing makes it sound like belief in any - or all! - of these things is perfectly valid, because no one knows for certain. But for any statement, the burden of proof is on the person making the statement. If a scientist tells us that something is true, he has to prove it, or at least show that the evidence strongly supports that theory. It is based on provable evidence, not traditional fairy tales that have been passed down from ancient times.
However, as an atheist, I can see that it's more complicated than that. Religion does serve a purpose; as a lifelong singer of choral music I love a lot of the traditional music, and think the world would be a lot sadder and emptier without, for instance, the Bach Mass in B Minor or Handel's Messiah. And I also think there's "something" out there, which we do not understand, and maybe the human brain CAN not understand. Or we haven't evolved to that point yet. We can call that ultimate truth "God," but that God could be a mathematical equation, for all we know.
Think about it; from the words that Beethoven set to music in his 9th Symphony: "Uber sternen muss er wohnen." (Above the stars He must live.) What a beautiful way of putting it, though it makes no sense scientifically. But it's pure poetry.
So, as a musician friend of mine once put it, maybe my religion is music!
Yes, but Mr. Ed, human beings have always and continue to "believe" in all sorts of things. And it's our prerogative to believe in all sorts of nonsense, which doesn't make it real. Ghosts, goblins, demons, gremlins, Satan. Many diverse gods, often warring with each other. A kind, loving "father," sort of like the grandfather some of us have had, or wish we did. A mean, punitive, fearful ruler who needs constant praise and loyalty, because he demands it.
(It's even controversial what pronouns we humans should use these days, but somehow God is usually portrayed as a "he.") The tooth fairy. The boogey man. Santa Claus. Little spirits inhabiting plants and animals. Dead people who listen to our prayers and can change the way things turn out. They are called saints. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Your phrasing makes it sound like belief in any - or all! - of these things is perfectly valid, because no one knows for certain. But for any statement, the burden of proof is on the person making the statement. If a scientist tells us that something is true, he has to prove it, or at least show that the evidence strongly supports that theory. It is based on provable evidence, not traditional fairy tales that have been passed down from ancient times.
However, as an atheist, I can see that it's more complicated than that. Religion does serve a purpose; as a lifelong singer of choral music I love a lot of the traditional music, and think the world would be a lot sadder and emptier without, for instance, the Bach Mass in B Minor or Handel's Messiah. And I also think there's "something" out there, which we do not understand, and maybe the human brain CAN not understand. Or we haven't evolved to that point yet. We can call that ultimate truth "God," but that God could be a mathematical equation, for all we know.
Think about it; from the words that Beethoven set to music in his 9th Symphony: "Uber sternen muss er wohnen." (Above the stars He must live.) What a beautiful way of putting it, though it makes no sense scientifically. But it's pure poetry.
So, as a musician friend of mine once put it, maybe my religion is music!
MarkD
Keeper of the Hounds & Garden
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
It's really fascinating, at least for me, to accept that our continued existence on this planet - albeit over a LOT of years - inevitably ends. Human kind, and Earth, simply cannot survive if all our eggs are in this particular basket. In between now and 4 billion years, goodness knows the effects the change will bring about for life on Earth. Either way, this particular boat is going down.
Quite what a God had in mind when he decided on this time limit, I don't know.
Glad you see that. What we believe in influences what we notice and ultimately the meaning we find in life. You're absolutely right that belief that there must be life out there beyond earth is a kind of faith and given what we are doing to this planet in our unchecked numbers it would be even more depressing than it is if you didn't have that confidence in life arising bountifully. Like all statements of faith, corroboration or refutation can be hard to come by. Goes with the territory.
Even people who believe in our being merely an amalgamation of atoms being pushed around deterministically by the laws of physics and embrace nihilism hold that on faith. They have no more proof than you or I though many will cloak themselves in science to give the impression of certainty. I find statements of faith that aren't overly specific both more useful and more honest.
gruntlabor
Well-known Member
- Location
- Last Frontier, Age 83
I understand that there are billions, even trillions of galaxies just in the observable universe. Belief in life beyond earth is more than a faith, it is a belief based on probabilities, which is all we ever have really.
ElCastor
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern CA
We are plagued with stories of unidentified flying and seaborne objects, as well as aliens that may have visited in ancient times. Perhaps other beings, faced with the death of their planet, are looking for a new home. That being the case, or not, it seems likely that faced with the nova of our sun we might one day engage in some sort of search, unless of course, we haven’t already been replaced by a malignant AI, or nuked ourselves into oblivion. (-8It's really fascinating, at least for me, to accept that our continued existence on this planet - albeit over a LOT of years - inevitably ends. Human kind, and Earth, simply cannot survive if all our eggs are in this particular basket. In between now and 4 billion years, goodness knows the effects the change will bring about for life on Earth. Either way, this particular boat is going down.
Quite what a God had in mind when he decided on this time limit, I don't know.
Mr. Ed
Be what you is not what you what you ain’t
- Location
- Central NY
I am convinced therefore I am.
I think it's only politics that is verboten. Religion is OK, as far as I know, as long as we remain polite to each other.
You've been told wrong
There is no eternal suffering
That's not Biblical
There's just eternal death
You won't be coming back
Stoppelmann
Member
- Location
- Germany
Yes, the word kennen does seem to be used in that phrase, although the Scottish also have a "ken." I'm told (by AI):
Stoppelmann
Member
- Location
- Germany
There is, of course, scientism, which tends to have a belief in rather than knowledge of science.
gruntlabor
Well-known Member
- Location
- Last Frontier, Age 83
You're on the right site, and we never stop talking politics. I don't know how we get away with it.thank you Mr stoppelman - leave ya calling card at the desk and we'll get back to you on that one!!