Question for the Atheist

To deny our spirituality can lead to overbalancing on the side of our animal natures, which were early described as: Pride, Greed, Envy, Wrath, Lust, Gluttony, Sloth, and Sadness. Sadness because it can be self-maintained, addictive, dragged out, destructive, and otherwise too much enjoyed.

That is interesting. I agree that denying our better nature leads to imbalance but I wouldn’t call it our “animal nature”. Animals live in a state of grace entirely at one with what they are and with nature as a whole. When we lose our balance it is by becoming absorbed in our abstract mental representations of the world and wind up in our heads and out of touch with the world. We no longer are at peace with what we are and with nature in the way that animals are; we have been expelled from garden, so to speak.

There is no going back to the grace of animals as we have evolved on a path that commits us to abstraction, language and social commitment. Redemption requires elevating our humanity. Society and religion are the ways we have evolved to maintain our balance as social animals living in larger groups than any other. We are also the only animal aware of its own mortality. Religion isn’t mistaken science nor is it a delusion, though it isn’t wholly good either. It evolved to fit a need and the fact that it is as wide spread as it is indicates it was successful, having taken us this far at least.
 

That is interesting. I agree that denying our better nature leads to imbalance but I wouldn’t call it our “animal nature”. Animals live in a state of grace entirely at one with what they are and with nature as a whole. When we lose our balance it is by becoming absorbed in our abstract mental representations of the world and wind up in our heads and out of touch with the world. We no longer are at peace with what we are and with nature in the way that animals are; we have been expelled from garden, so to speak.

There is no going back to the grace of animals as we have evolved on a path that commits us to abstraction, language and social commitment. Redemption requires elevating our humanity. Society and religion are the ways we have evolved to maintain our balance as social animals living in larger groups than any other. We are also the only animal aware of its own mortality. Religion isn’t mistaken science nor is it a delusion, though it isn’t wholly good either. It evolved to fit a need and the fact that it is as wide spread as it is indicates it was successful, having taken us this far at least.

Excellent post, bravo!
 

Do you have a need to worship/support a higher power?
NO
Do you replace god with something else?
NO
Do you believe in spirituality?
YES
Can you be spiritual and not believe in god?
YES
Do you have/attend a formal group for discussion and socialization? NO
 
It doesn't. But to be distressed over a child having fallen into a well, for example, is a spiritual emotion simply because it falls outside of our animal natures.
I would posit that as social creatures, we have empathy for others of our kind just as other social animals do. This is a perfectly natural response and has nothing to do with spiritual (supernatural) causes. If you pretend to cry, your dog will comfort you. Is your dog experiencing a spiritual emotion, or just displaying the natural empathy it has for other creatures?
 
I laugh at the hypocrites ( of all religions ) who act as if they have access to some secret knowledge. The foundations of most religions are..Get the kids when they are young and indoctrinate them, before they develop independent thinking ability. Make the faithful feel GUILTY, and play on that for all it's worth. GET THE MONEY. PROMISE them everything you can think of, but all ways have the "weasel words " handy if the flock starts to ask " difficult questions " about the leadership of the sect. Make the dogma as complicated as possible, so the simple minded will be happy, and not asking WHY?

The signs are all there, if you bother to look. JimB.
You are absolutely right. It is possible that well-meaning clergyman, preachers, missionaries and minister are so caught up in recruiting and indoctrinating people to conform to the so called better-life they fail to see the truth beyond their commitments to the god of their religion. So called men/women of god who just don’t see what is all around them.
 
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This is a perfectly natural response and has nothing to do with spiritual (supernatural) causes.

I also dismiss the supernatural as you often hear it described. But I don’t think spiritual implies supernatural. Also some people talk instead of the supranatural meaning something natural but ineffable, in other words not something explicable by physics. I have no problem with that.
 
I also dismiss the supernatural as you often hear it described. But I don’t think spiritual implies supernatural. Also some people talk instead of the supranatural meaning something natural but ineffable, in other words not something explicable by physics. I have no problem with that.
That's why it's so important for us to define our terms when making claims. Otherwise, we end up arguing about disparate things and never get to a point of understanding. To me, something ineffable is not natural, otherwise it would be describable and expressible.
 
Atheists and Theists aren't that different, in that each has their own culture and arguments.

Many atheists think that their atheism is the product of rational thinking. They use arguments such as “I don’t believe in God, I believe in science” to explain that evidence and logic, rather than supernatural belief and dogma, underpin their thinking. But just because you believe in evidence based, scientific research which is subject to strict checks and procedures doesn’t mean that your mind works in the same way.

Closer to the truth perhaps is when you ask atheists about why they became atheists, and find they often point to eureka moments when they came to realize that religion simply doesn’t make sense ... in their mind.

Atheists are no more rational than theists. Indeed, atheists are just as susceptible as the next person to “group-think” and other non-rational forms of cognition. For example, religious and nonreligious people alike can end up following charismatic individuals without questioning them.

Even atheist beliefs themselves have much less to do with rational inquiry than atheists often think. For example, nonreligious children of religious parents cast off their beliefs for reasons that have little to do with intellectual reasoning. Often the decisive factor is learning from what parents do rather than from what they say. So if a parent says that they’re Christian, but they’ve fallen out of the habit of doing the things they say should matter ... such as praying or going to church ... their kids simply don’t buy the idea that religion makes sense.

This is perfectly rational in a sense, but children aren’t processing this on a cognitive level. Throughout our evolutionary history, humans have often lacked the time to scrutinize and weigh up the evidence, needing rather to make quick assessments. That means that children to some extent just absorb the crucial information, which in this case is that religious belief doesn’t appear to matter in the way that parents are saying it does.

Even older children, adolescents and many adults who actually ponder the topic of religion may not be approaching it as independently as they think. Atheists (and others) make available and pass on their beliefs in a similar way to religious people ... through sharing their culture as much as their arguments.

Some parents take the view that their children should choose their beliefs for themselves, but what they then do is pass on certain ways of thinking about religion, like the idea that religion is a matter of choice rather than divine truth. It’s not surprising that almost all of these children end up “choosing” to be atheist.

So it is that perhaps the idea that being atheist is down to rationality alone may appear to look distinctly irrational. But the good news for all concerned is that rationality is overrated. Human ingenuity and perseverance rests on a lot more than rational thinking. The ability to make quick decisions, follow our passions and act on intuition are also important human qualities and crucial for our success. Abilities and qualities shared by Atheists and Theists alike.

It is helpful that we have invented something that, unlike our minds, is rational and evidence-based: science. When we need proper evidence, science can very often provide it ... as long as the topic is testable. Importantly, the evidence does not tend to support the view that atheism is about rational thought and theism is about existential fulfillment. The truth is that humans are not like science. None of us get by without irrational action, nor without sources of existential meaning and comfort. Fortunately, though, nobody has to.
RhAYIib.jpeg
 
Atheists and Theists aren't that different, in that each has their own culture and arguments.

Many atheists think that their atheism is the product of rational thinking. They use arguments such as “I don’t believe in God, I believe in science” to explain that evidence and logic, rather than supernatural belief and dogma, underpin their thinking. But just because you believe in evidence based, scientific research which is subject to strict checks and procedures doesn’t mean that your mind works in the same way.

Closer to the truth perhaps is when you ask atheists about why they became atheists, and find they often point to eureka moments when they came to realize that religion simply doesn’t make sense ... in their mind.

Atheists are no more rational than theists. Indeed, atheists are just as susceptible as the next person to “group-think” and other non-rational forms of cognition. For example, religious and nonreligious people alike can end up following charismatic individuals without questioning them.

Even atheist beliefs themselves have much less to do with rational inquiry than atheists often think. For example, nonreligious children of religious parents cast off their beliefs for reasons that have little to do with intellectual reasoning. Often the decisive factor is learning from what parents do rather than from what they say. So if a parent says that they’re Christian, but they’ve fallen out of the habit of doing the things they say should matter ... such as praying or going to church ... their kids simply don’t buy the idea that religion makes sense.

This is perfectly rational in a sense, but children aren’t processing this on a cognitive level. Throughout our evolutionary history, humans have often lacked the time to scrutinize and weigh up the evidence, needing rather to make quick assessments. That means that children to some extent just absorb the crucial information, which in this case is that religious belief doesn’t appear to matter in the way that parents are saying it does.

Even older children, adolescents and many adults who actually ponder the topic of religion may not be approaching it as independently as they think. Atheists (and others) make available and pass on their beliefs in a similar way to religious people ... through sharing their culture as much as their arguments.

Some parents take the view that their children should choose their beliefs for themselves, but what they then do is pass on certain ways of thinking about religion, like the idea that religion is a matter of choice rather than divine truth. It’s not surprising that almost all of these children end up “choosing” to be atheist.

So it is that perhaps the idea that being atheist is down to rationality alone may appear to look distinctly irrational. But the good news for all concerned is that rationality is overrated. Human ingenuity and perseverance rests on a lot more than rational thinking. The ability to make quick decisions, follow our passions and act on intuition are also important human qualities and crucial for our success. Abilities and qualities shared by Atheists and Theists alike.

It is helpful that we have invented something that, unlike our minds, is rational and evidence-based: science. When we need proper evidence, science can very often provide it ... as long as the topic is testable. Importantly, the evidence does not tend to support the view that atheism is about rational thought and theism is about existential fulfillment. The truth is that humans are not like science. None of us get by without irrational action, nor without sources of existential meaning and comfort. Fortunately, though, nobody has to.
RhAYIib.jpeg

All good points. No one does, ever has or ever will plan their day the way a mission to Mars would be. Not practical or even possible. Life is a flow and is lived there in.
 
@Naturally,

This is why it's so important to define terms. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god, not a "belief system" or "way of life" or "group" of any kind. It is actually the default position if you think you should have evidence for something before you accept it. You're not born with a god belief but it's something you must be taught.

Passion and intuition are not reliable paths to truth. If truth matters, you should require sufficient evidence for your beliefs. If it's just a matter of accepting what makes you feel good, then believe what you want.
 
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god, not a "belief system" or "way of life" or "group" of any kind. It is actually the default position if you think you should have evidence for something before you accept it. You're not born with a god belief but it's something you must be taught.
The bold is debatable. Some argue that humans have an innate tendency towards spirituality or a desire for meaning beyond the physical world. This internal search might lead them to explore religious concepts and develop a belief in god on their own, even without explicit teaching.
 
Passion and intuition are not reliable paths to truth. If truth matters, you should require sufficient evidence for your beliefs. If it's just a matter of accepting what makes you feel good, then believe what you want.

I have been shown evidence for my beliefs and know them as truth beyond any doubt. But also must acknowledge that my shared experience is not evidence to "you" nor ever will be and that's okay :) ... My post from last year in the Diary sub-forum
 
I have been shown evidence for my beliefs and know them as truth beyond any doubt. But also must acknowledge that my shared experience is not evidence to "you" nor ever will be and that's okay :)
That's very honest and insightful. I must have watched hundreds of Theist/Atheist debates over the years, and whenever there was a vote at the end, the Atheist believed that the Atheist won, and the Theist believed that the Theist won. It's nearly impossible to change minds in person and totally impossible to change minds on a venue like this, if it's even important to do so. I should know better but sometimes, I forget and try anyway.

Someone smart once said... "Live and let live."
 
Live and let live. And therein lies the problem. It is fine for everyone to have their own beliefs. When they start trying to push them on others or punishing others who do not believe as they do, therein lies the problem.
 


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