CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
Buuuut.... in this case, you decided to turn the poster into a... "punching bag"....
Religion: The views of an agnostic
- Thread starter CAKCy
- Start date
Buuuut.... in this case, you decided to turn the poster into a... "punching bag"....
Dancing_Queen
Member
Enough of this weird stuff out there and may find ourselves jumping through worm holes.
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
Enough of this weird stuff out there and may find ourselves jumping through worm holes.
Worry not!
Hawking's radiation will compensate....
feywon
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rural North Central NM
Whoa--where did i say 'dubious and trustworthy', if you drew that conclusion from things i said about inconsistencies and non-adherence to the standards the Concept of Science in presenting ones ideas and conclusions--that's on you. NOT my words.I wish things were as straight forward. @feywon is right: Many reasons make science appear dubious and untrustworthy. (Remember Hydroxychloroquine?)
i do feel Scientists and science 'fans' are often dogmatic and do not adhere to all the processes and constructs about evidence and proof they claim to hold dear. You really don't want to get me started on what is indeed 'dubious' about 'thought experiments' or thinking a 20 ft long equation can explain behaviors.
feywon
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rural North Central NM
i'm sorry that it felt like that to you. Maybe you should report me for making a personal attack? If you think you can make a case for an alternative point of view, a viable counter-argument to a statement being a personal attack!
Even on a thread one of us starts it is never just about the OP, unless they are asking advice about something. The best conversations/discussions/debates on what bingo called 'deep thinking' take on a life of their own, they can quite naturally grow out in various directions.
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
My bad. You didn't use those words. Your exact words were:
which could be (or I did) interpreted as science (read scientists) being dubious and untrustworthy. If new ideas/paradigms are left in the drawer for any reason (publicity, greed, ego etc.) doesn't that make science untrustworthy or a huge conspiracy? The same applies when studies are conducted aiming at reaching a pre-determined conclusion.
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
I should say that I was kidding. My apologies!
feywon
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rural North Central NM
That lets me feel better, i was afraid I'd actually offended you.
not my intent and why i said 'tongue in cheek' first, altho i have pondered the possibility of such a moebious bend.
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
I have said many times... maybe you missed it... one has to try really, really, REALLY hard to offend me. I often use sarcasm, self-deprecation or plain silliness as part of my "being funny" persona (or so I think). I should be more careful with people who don't know me so well...
feywon
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rural North Central NM
I considered the possibility but wasn't sure.
Experience has taught that as careful as i try to be with my words, sometimes i mess up.
I don't get offended easily either tho i certainly may get annoyed or aggravated with people sometimes, but i don't take things personally until i've had extensive interactions with someone and a negative remark is clearly aimed at me.
Irwin
Well-known Member
- Location
- Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Au contraire mon frere, there are successful communes all over the world — even in the United States. Communes have thrived in Israel for at least 100 years. On a small scale, they are very efficient economic systems where everyone works together for the common good — something that's frowned up by many in todays self-centered world. On a nationwide scale, communism often gets corrupted by a dictator, such as with Stalinism and in Cuba. Then again, the argument could be made that the U.S. turned Castro into a dictator.
Many communist implementations around the world never got a chance to succeed. American interventionism made sure of that. During the Cold War, whenever our leaders saw a nation leaning towards communism — usually with a new, democratically elected leader who sought to nationalize their national resources being plundered by American corporations, we overthrew their leaders and installed right wing dictators. That was the case in Chile, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and several others that slip my mind at the moment.
We also intervened where we believed that if one country fell to communism, it would have a domino effect and all the countries in the region would fall to communism. That must be a pretty damn good system if people love it so much that we have to block it from spreading! That was the rationale for our intervention in Vietnam where the vast majority of the population were Buddhist communists and we installed a Christian dictator who was sympathetic to American needs to "prevent the spread of communism." In the case of Vietnam, they didn't have natural resources we needed, but it was more their proximity to China that scared us. We were afraid that if Vietnam fell, all of Indonesia would follow.
Okay, I admit it... I derailed the conversation. I've been reading a book about American interventionism so it's been on my mind. Back to religion and agnosticism.
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
If I EVER feel offended by you (or anyone) you will get a direct blunt question, just to make sure. I detest having to read between the lines!
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
Au contraire mon frere, there are successful communes all over the world — even in the United States. Communes have thrived in Israel for at least 100 years. On a small scale, they are very efficient economic systems where everyone works together for the common good — something that's frowned up by many in todays self-centered world. On a nationwide scale, communism often gets corrupted by a dictator, such as with Stalinism and in Cuba. Then again, the argument could be made that the U.S. turned Castro into a dictator.
Many communist implementations around the world never got a chance to succeed. American interventionism made sure of that. During the Cold War, whenever our leaders saw a nation leaning towards communism — usually with a new, democratically elected leader who sought to nationalize their national resources being plundered by American corporations, we overthrew their leaders and installed right wing dictators. That was the case in Chile, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and several others that slip my mind at the moment.
We also intervened where we believed that if one country fell to communism, it would have a domino effect and all the countries in the region would fall to communism. That must be a pretty damn good system if people love it so much that we have to block it from spreading! That was the rationale for our intervention in Vietnam where the vast majority of the population were Buddhist communists and we installed a Christian dictator who was sympathetic to American needs to "prevent the spread of communism." In the case of Vietnam, they didn't have natural resources we needed, but it was more their proximity to China that scared us. We were afraid that if Vietnam fell, all of Indonesia would follow.
Okay, I admit it... I derailed the conversation. I've been reading a book about American interventionism so it's been on my mind. Back to religion and agnosticism.
I am CAKCy and I approve this message!
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Can't say for certain but one thing's for sure ~ as Alan Watts said many years ago, more people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. More often than not, due to (mis)interpretations of the New Testament. Ironically the fanatics who committed these crimes claim to worship the Prince of Peace. So sad when you think about it.
grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
I have tried to explain I'm still unsure, twenty years on what it really means to state something seemingly so simple, as "When we SAY there is a god, there is a god, when we SAY there is no god, there is no god", (my first thought twenty years ago was that it couldn't be right because it suggests mankind creates god, not the other way around).
However, I must have tried to discuss the sermon I'm referring to a few times since then, and realise that's an achievement in itself, by the minister, "making you think"!
Now my thinking is this, notice the word "SAY".
That's the operative word, those people gathered in church on the day listening to the minister were choosing to say there was a god, not that they thought or necessarily believed there was a god, oddly enough, and it is a group choosing to do this, not one person thinking for themselves alone, (that' you're interpretation isn't it, and where you fall down in your understanding in my view).
Now many of those people in that church had spent a lifetime trying to understand their religion, and professing a faith, and were far more knowledgeable than I, and of course the minister himself, fulfilling such a skilled role, as an instructor/teacher, leader, drawing people together, trying to encourage people to think about their lives, have belief in themselves, (and in others), and making us collectively feel better about ourselves maybe, and assisting in meditation.
That's of course without mentioning any scriptures, and I'm sure many could come up with a very long list of the skills needed to lead even a small church.
So this idea I've put forward, "saying something" is the significant bit, when it comes to a religion, far more perhaps than even what it means to say you believe in a god, or "presence", or as I clumsily put it, "something outside of yourself", (and of the nature I'm trying to describe, by definition I'd say, atheists cannot do this!).
Any further forward or more confused? I'll fully understand if you believe I'm talking complete nonsense.
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
I don't disagree with what you say. I just consider the millions (if not billions) who would be left without anywhere/anyone to turn to in time of coping with their problems or their fears. Not everyone is strong enough to cope on their own. (That includes myself. Maybe if a I had a God my depression and anxiety would be a lot less...)
Regarding the fanatics who reach the point of committing acts of violence in the name of their religion, I believe they are a small minority to the entire set of believers.
Aneeda72
Well-known Member
But these were, I believe, financial decisions. Especially the decision to allow blacks to join and hold the priesthood, just saying. But the LDS priesthood is not comparable to the priesthood of the Catholic Church.
The fundamental LDS folks still believe in polygamy and still practice it within the state of Utah. Most would be shocked to learn how much it is still here. It’s not just a tv show
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CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
But these were, I believe, financial decisions. Especially the decision to allow blacks to join and hold the priesthood, just saying. But the LDS priesthood is not comparable to the priesthood of the Catholic Church.
The fundamental LDS folks still believe in polygamy and still practice it within the safe of Utah. Most would be shocked to learn how much it is still here. It’s not just a tv show
Hey Aneeda72! It's a pleasure to have you joining in the conversation!
Just a note here;
I've been an agnostic most my life
Living in the mountains (nature) turned me
This stuff don't just happen
Mornings there, out the window of our cabin bedroom;
It's a glorious way to wake up
That
and some events;
Didn’t happen today, yet still....it made me happy today
It’ll make me happy tomorrow if I think about it
A while back, wife and I went to church
It’s refreshing, sometimes, to attend a church
Sometimes
Anyway, there was a song service
I don’t sing
Can’t
Tried
It’s not considered singing
So, there I was, mouthing the words.
A few rows back, a middle aged gentleman was singing his heart out.
A tenor, I believe.
I also believe he was a butcher by trade.
Cause he was doin’ a job of it on that song.
His voice, his voice literally hurt my good ear.
Seems there are several stanzas to ‘He Lives’.
He got louder with each one.
At the last of the chorus to the last stanza I looked back...
Had to
There he was, tears streaming down his face.
Yet,
His face....beaming
The sun wasn't shining
But, his heart, his heart was filled, filled with joy
..and it came out
He wasn’t a good looking guy
He literally wrecked the hymn
I’ve seen a lot of beauty
A lot
In nature, mostly
But this
This was the most beautiful thing
I have ever seen
I've been an agnostic most my life
Living in the mountains (nature) turned me
This stuff don't just happen
Mornings there, out the window of our cabin bedroom;
It's a glorious way to wake up
That
and some events;
Didn’t happen today, yet still....it made me happy today
It’ll make me happy tomorrow if I think about it
A while back, wife and I went to church
It’s refreshing, sometimes, to attend a church
Sometimes
Anyway, there was a song service
I don’t sing
Can’t
Tried
It’s not considered singing
So, there I was, mouthing the words.
A few rows back, a middle aged gentleman was singing his heart out.
A tenor, I believe.
I also believe he was a butcher by trade.
Cause he was doin’ a job of it on that song.
His voice, his voice literally hurt my good ear.
Seems there are several stanzas to ‘He Lives’.
He got louder with each one.
At the last of the chorus to the last stanza I looked back...
Had to
There he was, tears streaming down his face.
Yet,
His face....beaming
The sun wasn't shining
But, his heart, his heart was filled, filled with joy
..and it came out
He wasn’t a good looking guy
He literally wrecked the hymn
I’ve seen a lot of beauty
A lot
In nature, mostly
But this
This was the most beautiful thing
I have ever seen
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
I love you man!
Now go say welcome to @caramel, our newcomer!
Pay attention to my words: SAY hello to her. DON'T sing it!
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Well, I did not say that the New Testament should be censored or that denominational churches be wiped away from the earth. Perhaps what we need is more correct interpretation of that book's teaching. Or at least Alan Watts would have said so. BTW, his lectures can be found on youtube.
Over the years I have challenged a number of preachers to prove certain NT claims to be real. For example, the book says any of Jesus's ministers could duplicate and surpass the many miracles attributed to him. I especially made it a point to challenge the cultists Herbert W and Garner T Armstrong of the infamous World Wide Church of God. Two biggest phonies I ever encountered in my life. I dared both of them to have a public debate with me on the subject of their cult's teaching and both of them ran away from me faster than Dracula running away from the Holy Cross.
Don't know if the name Charles Colson of Watergate fame means anything to you as it does to many Americans. He was another one who made some rather convenient misinterpretations of the Bible. I challenged him to debates on his writings which he quickly declined. But at least he did so very politely and humbly unlike the two Antichrist Armstrong phonies.
Bottom line is that many churches have given themselves the authority to kill in the name of their Holy Book. This despite the fact that they cannot point to any authorization given by any actual source. This is what Watts was talking about it.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
All my life I've always wished that I could live the lifestyle where this was all a major part of my life. But the opportunity never came my way. Your pics remind me of my all time fave poem by Wm Cullen Bryant:
Inscription for the Entrance to a Wood
Stranger, if thou hast learned a truth which needs
No school of long experience, that the world
Is full of guilt and misery, and hast seen
Enough of all its sorrows, crimes, and cares,
To tire thee of it, enter this wild wood
And view the haunts of nature. The calm shade
Shall bring a kindred calm, and the sweet breeze
That makes the green leaves dance, shall waft a balm
To thy sick heart. Thou wilt find nothing here
Of all that pained thee in the haunts of men,
And made thee loathe thy life. The primal curse
Fell, it is true, upon the unsinning earth,
But not in vengance. God hath yoked to guilt
Her pale tormentor, Misery. Hence these shades
Are still the abode of gladness; the thick roof
Of green and stirring branches is alive
And musical with birds, that sing and sport
In wantonness of spirit; while below
The squirrel, with raised paws and form erect,
Chirps merrily. Throngs of insects in the shade
Try their thin wings and dance in the warm beam.
That waked them into life. Even the green trees
Partake the deep contentment; as they bend
To the soft winds, the sun from the blue sky
Looks in and sheds a blessing on the scene.
Scarce less the cleft-born wildflower seems to enjoy
Existence, than the winged plunderer
That sucks its sweets. The mossy rocks themselves,
And the old and ponderous trunks of prostrate trees
That lead from knoll to knoll a causeway rude,
Or bridge the sunken brook, and their dark roots,
With all their roots upon them, twisting high,
Breathe fixed tranquility. The rivulet
Sends forth glad sounds, and tripping o'er its bed
Of pebbly sands, or leaping down the rocks
Seems, with continuous laughter, to rejoice
In its own being. Softly tread the marge,
Lest from her midway perch thou scare the wren
That dips her bill in water. The cool wind,
That stirs the stream in play, shall come to thee,
Like one that loves thee nor will let thee pass
Ungreeted, and shall give its light embrace.
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
So, you are some sort of known/famous advocate of atheism?
I need to do a lot more homework studying the American reality of religion. I have to admit that the names you mention don't ring a bell.
The same, of course, applies to other religions which have used their followers to commit atrocities.
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
My favorite Kazantzakis quote about God:
“I said to the almond tree, 'Sister, speak to me of God.'. And the almond tree blossomed.”
Kazantzakis was almost ex-communicated by the Greek Orthodox Church because of his "Last Temptation" and "Christ Recrucified"
Aneeda72
Well-known Member
Of course the miracles of Jesus have been duplicated and surpassed. A human heart can be removed and replaced with another human heart-what greater miracle do you need? Was this science, yes. But still a miracle.
As far as I know, neither God nor Jesus defined how the miracles were to come about-so science is an accepted method of obtaining miracles. Religion is not a necessary component of belief in God, but it probably helps